To tell my son that he doesn't have to pray?

[SweetAudrina]

DS goes to a normal state primary. Not a religious school.

Yet the kids are forced to pray a Christian prayer every assembly. Even the athiest/muslim/hindu kids etc.

I have told DS he doesn't have to pray but he should sit still and quiet whilst other people do. However today he was told off for not praying!!

If the teacher asks me about it (as DS told her I said he didn't have to) am I going to come across a "difficult" parent who is just trying to cause trouble or am I justified in thinking that kids shouldn't be FORCED to pray?

The OP did say he was sitting quietly and told he had to say the words. Also that there were muslim children who were joining in (probably too young to know that they shouldn't really).

the whole opting out thing is a bit odd - presumably you only know what is going on at school if your child tells you - so it could be 30 mins of satanic worship every morning and you would have no idea so naturally wouldn't pull your child out of assembly.

Or do schools have to tell parents the nature and extent of religious worship that goes on (DD too young for school so no idea).

As for assumblies in general - of a broadly christian theme - sure - we are a broadly christian county which results on our broadly christian approach.

Talks about tolerance, love thy neighbour, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, that greed is immoral etc are all valucable lessons.

But I for one would not be happy if DD came home from school and announced that she had been praying to the lord god who is almighty and that jesus died on the cross for our sins and that when you died you went to heaven and there were angels there.

I would in fact do my nut.

Yeah, I'm not actually advocating satanist assemblies since satan is just another god like jehovah or allah etc.

As for lessons from the bible. I can think of a few.

Solidgold has already pointed out the homophobia and misogyny.

#1 If mistreated by a government it's ok to steal from the ordinary citizens.
(read about Moses telling the children of israel to 'borrow' jewelry from those Egyptians who trusted them)

#2 If you want a place to live, but there are already people living there then it's ok to slaughter men, women and children to make room. (also Moses, but a little later on)

#3 If someone does you wrong it's ok to take it out on their children and grandchildren. (Several places in the bible, but I can find them if you are not familar with the book)

#4 If the law of a country doesn't fit with your religion than it's ok to break it.

#5 If you have trouble with your neighbours just offer them your virgin daughters to rape to buy them off. (see Lot)

#6 If someone (even children) disrespects you then it's ok to kill them horribly.
(See isaiah and the bears)

The bible is full of these and even if you stick to the 'nice' bits in assembly you are still teaching children that this book is a source of moral guidence. Teach them about it by all means just like you would the holocaust and the nazi's. Just don't require them to worship it.

Message withdrawn

I'm a Christian myself but I don't actually see why we have to have Christian assemblies in a country where the majority of the population is not.

I am sure it would be possible to devise uplifting assemblies with no reference to any specific religion.

Moses and the rest can be found a home in RE.

I know what the law says, but laws can be changed and I think this is possibly one that has outlived its function.

Won't work I'm afraid onager. Referring people to horrendous old testament stories is IME met with "well yes but the important bits are the new testament and anyway one would steer children away from anything inappropriate".

I don't remember the nuns at my school steering us away from anything inappropriate - I remember a particularly nasty story about a concubine getting gang raped - I remember reading it at the school I went to when I was age 5-8.

Nice.

happywomble on Thu 12-Feb-09 14:41:11
"I think it is fine to say the lords prayer (preferably the nice original version)"

Ooo I do approve of this though. Anything that creates a demand for teachers of Ancient Greek is fine by me. And a spot of Arameic sounds just right

(I would hate to think that there were Christians so uneducated about their own faith that they believe there is anything original about the King James' Bible)

Bloss, If you actually read it you will find that it wasn't just a random story,
Lot was picked out as a good and decent guy. God saved his life because he approved of him
Therefore it is an example of how people should behave.
Same with Isaiah and the bears. These were men god felt really good about.

Oddly enough there are groups that claim the King James' Bible to be the original.

Their claim apparently involves god writing the KJV in heaven and then man gradually writing version after version until in 1611 they got it right. Some of them argue that jesus spoke the english of King James time too (glossing over the problem of no one understanding a word he was saying) A bit unfair on non english speakers I thought, but I think the group I was studying expected everyone to learn english if they wanted to get into heaven.

Make something up, no matter how daft, and you will find someone out there preaching it as the word of god. Christianity is a catch-all term

#7 It's OK for a father to give his virgin daughters to a mob of soldiers to use as they wish, if they agree to stop pounding on his door. (Lot, offering his daughters to soldiers at his door)

#8 It's OK to seduce your own father get what you want out of him (Lot's daughters)

Onager, you CANNOT be serious! Is there no theory so absurd that you cannot find someone to believe it?

I very much doubt whether a teacher would even know much less care that a child wasn't praying if they were sitting still and quiet with their head bowed.
I suspect the OP's Ds wasn't doing those things when he got told off.
I am continually gobsmacked by the gullibility of MNers to the unlikely tales their children tell them about what happens at school.

If you are going to be gobsmacked about something, why don't you get all gobsmacked about children of different religions being forced to sit through Christian prayer assemblies in this day and age?

Cory - sorry I wasn't going quite that far back. I was thinking of the version of the Lords Prayer we used to say or sing in the 1970s in English! So not quite the original one (whoops!)

LadyGlencoraPalliser, There are lots of variations on KJVONLY some more wild than others. The "jesus spoke elizabethen english" lot are probably the furthest round the bend.

So no story is too absurd.

In fact I heard that a woman got pregnant and told her husband that 'an angel did it' and started a new religion. It doesn't take much really.

ROFL onager

happywomble, you seem to be missing the point a bit about the objection to assemblies. It was the obligatory denominational/religious slant that most people object to, not the assembly itself. We are all in agreement that it's a good time for coming together as a school to celebrate pupils achievements, share news, and encouraging the children to reflect on moral, social and philosophical issues. It's just unnecessary and presumptious to come at it from the angle of any one specific religion, or indeed from the angle of religion at all.

I am happy for my children to be taught about Christianity from a detached perspective, and I agree with whoever said that many bible stories are good moral fables for children, but then again some things in the bible are quite horrifically inappropriate ,as Onagar pointed out about Lot! Though no doubt someone will be along shortly to explain that we are taking it too literally and have got the wrong end of the stick, as is always the case with any bible passage that's a wee bit embarrassing and difficult to justify. Same with the Koran. I'm equally happy for my kids to be taught about Islam, and for stories from the Islamic faith to be used to illustrate a moral point, (or from any other faith) once again so long as it's from a detached perspective and so long as it does not preach any message which divisive, bigotted or unacceptable by today's standards.

All those people saying 'ask for your child to be withdrawn' or 'if you feel that strongly about it why don't you just withdraw him' - why should any child need to miss out on a group activity because they are in a religious majority, or because they have no religion at all? If assemblies were non-religious it would be totally inclusive and fairer for all. So many people seem to empathise with a muslim (for example) being removed from a Christian assembly, or vice-versa, but there seems to be a general apathy where children of no religious bent are concerned - it seems perfectly fine to allow them to be indoctrinated!

As for the Christmas issue I'm quite happy for my children to do the nativity and we celebrate Christmas (as I said I have no real issues with the Christian message) and let's face it was a pagan festival before it was a Christian one anyway - we need to party about something! I'd also have no probs if my kids want to sing and dance and dress up and eat sweets and put on a play for Diwali or Eid either frankly.

Somebody on this thread said you are teaching him to disobey the teachers and I think this is true. Tell him to do as he's told. If you're not religious saying a religious prayer to a god you don't believe in isn't wrong it just doesn't mean anything to you. Teachers need support not 'my mum said I don't have to'.

I meant religious minority, obviously. God, can't we get an edit function on this damn thing?

I'm normally in favour of children obeying the teacher but there are limits and this is one of them. It can be quite offensive for an atheist to be expected to pray to a non existent god, as they see it.

And it isn't only about atheists, sikh, muslim, Hindu, Jewish children etc will presumably be expected to do the same. It isn't right.

Prayers shouldn't be said at all in a state school in assembly, but until such foolishness stops there is nothing wrong with the OP's children sitting quietly while the others pray.

"Tell him to do as he's told."

No.

I'm not in the business of raising sheep.

If my children were told to pray to some deity they don't believe in, I hope they will have the independence of mind and strength of character to disobey. And they will be perfectly justified to do so.

I won't say the prayers when I go to church for christenings etc. As I think it's cobblers I am not about to start worshipping a deity just because everyone else is.

I also feel it's offensive to those who do believe to just mouth the words while in my head I am thinking what a load of old rubbish it all is .

peachy have you heard of indoctrination? Surely the parents have the right to indoctinate their children as they see fit, and feel annoyed if anyone else trys to impose different conflicting beliefs on them?

I am not 100% enamoured of this "you have to support the teachers at all costs". This is the attitude that had my disabled daughter crawl on her hands and knees to access the toilet because she thought it would be wrong to complain of anything that the teacher told her.
(the head had decided that the disabled toilet was to be kept nice and clean for visitors)

My attitude has always been and will always be that you support the teachers when it is not wrong to do so.

But if you believe- as many people do- that Christianity is not only indifferent but morally repellent, then it is wrong to force your child to say a Christian prayer.

Also, if you are in my position: I believe in God: that is why I would find it shocking if my non-believing dd was forced to pray to him. Precisely because I do believe and prayer to me has a reality about it. I would expect her to sit quiet and not distract other people, but not to give in on her principles either.

cory that's horrendous.

What did you do? Did they apologise?

I wouldn't even be OK with DD being obliged to sit there. Before a certain age and maturity of mind, children believe everything adults of authority say. Subjecting them to repetitive prayer sessions is indoctrination.

cory