To tell my son that he doesn't have to pray?

[SweetAudrina]

DS goes to a normal state primary. Not a religious school.

Yet the kids are forced to pray a Christian prayer every assembly. Even the athiest/muslim/hindu kids etc.

I have told DS he doesn't have to pray but he should sit still and quiet whilst other people do. However today he was told off for not praying!!

If the teacher asks me about it (as DS told her I said he didn't have to) am I going to come across a "difficult" parent who is just trying to cause trouble or am I justified in thinking that kids shouldn't be FORCED to pray?

They also had her crawl up the stairs to get to her maths lesson (her set was the only one that was taught on top floor- head couldn't be bothered to change them round). When she refused to crawl, she was left in a classroom on her own to work on worksheets for a term. She did not tell us any of this until afterwards, because she was afraid of my reaction and thought it would be wrong if we made a fuss. By the time I found out, the head was retiring: otherwise, we would have sued. But it seemed unfair to sue when it would have to be dealt with by someone who hadn't even been there at the time.

Head's excuse was he didn't really think dd was disabled.

Anyway, while I do believe strongly in education, I don't believe in this idea of treating teachers as infallible demigods. Both my parents were teachers .

cote d'azur - telling your DCs christianity (or other established religion) is a load of nonsense is also indoctrination..you should give your dcs a chance to listen to all sides of the story and then let them form their own beliefs. Are you going to tell them they have to vote for the same politcal party as you when they're 18.

Haven't read the whole thing, but OP YANBU, although I personally think that some of the other posters are at best being somewhat naive. You're entitled not to have your son brainwashed - go and talk to the school calmly to find out their version of what happened and what your son's options are. Good luck - the National Secular Society will be able to advise if you need any help. I think they may have a campaign about this issue at the moment. You would be forgiven for thinking that we didn't have any legislation protecting people's religion or belief (and that includes non-religious humanist or secular beliefs, or indeed no belief)...

For goodness sake you have the opportunity to withdraw him from collective worship .Instead of taking this up you expect the school to change to suit you.What about the 70 odd percent of the poulation that ARE christian ?

Er, yes TumTumTum I have heard of indoctrination - have you? Indoctrination involves not being able to question or critically examine the doctrine. If this is what is happening then I'll be the first to be up in arms. Since when have schools had much luck indoctrinating through a simple morning prayer? Yet they've had loads of luck turning out kids that don't respect authority. I'm not saying the DS here is one of them - I'm sure he's a sweetheart. But perhaps he wasn't just sitting quietly looking down pretending to be praying because the biggest thing in his mind was that his mum had told him he didn't have to and, kids being what they are, I think that may have inadvertently come across and got him ticked off.

I don't believe for a minute that 70% of the UK population are practicing Christians.

I can sort of understand how some non-believers can accept the enforced muttering of a prayer as a piece of meaningless mumbo-jumbo that doesn't mean anything anyway. But surely that approach is harder for anyone who is actually a Christian?

Katiestar, if he is withdrawn from collective worship he is not allowed to take part in the other activities that make up an assembly. School announcements etc. Suppose the school had prayers at the school library, the gym and at lunch. Should it be a case of "pray for our god or get out"

And by respecting authority I don't mean in a blind way, but being able to take authority in the way we all have to, to get on in life and deal with other people, combined with confidence and own beliefs. What happened to the lady's daughter who was made to crawl is horrible but I don't think you can invalidate an idea however wrong one stupid teacher gets it. On the other side of the coin, my brother had a foster child who's (real) mum told him not to let the teacher touch him because 'all teachers are paedophiles' (crap mother hence in care). One suspension and a very upset teacher later it took my SIL three days to get him to understand he was wrong. This stupidity doesn't undermine a parent's right to tell their kids things does it?

Most churches are empty but some people might quite like the moral side of things that the church likes to claim as its own, The Simpsons stylee.

just read op s sorry if repeating something that has been said.

By telling your child not to pray but not telling the school your ds looked like he was not listening/messing about. If you have objections (which you are allowed to in a non-denominational school acting like a Christian school) then I would address them to the Head and ask that your child not be expected to take part. You are allowed to do this.

Maybe your child was drawing attention to the fact that he wasn't praying?

Um, well teaching small children a schpiel that starts "our father who are in heaven hallowed by thy name" and making them recite it every single day sounds like indoctrination to me.

I'm not sure how repeating something word for word every morning, whether you understand the meaning of it or not, is "critically examining the doctrine". More normalising the doctrine and reinforcing it through exposure I reckon.

Have to say that whilst teaching in a Catholic school I got my year 4's to write down the Lord's prayer after 4 years of repeating it at school and as many years in church. We had a huge laugh in the staff room at what some of them wrote which was nothing like the actual words.

Also I asked my year 3's to write about the Christmas story and one lad, when I mentioned that they would need to metion, shepherd's and angels, said 'Oh, oh that Chrstmas story!' turns out he's written all about father Christmas bringing presents!!!

You'd be amazed what they don't take in during indoctrination!

Crikey check those spelling mistakes! Never mind eh I'm sure I'll be forgiven

Message withdrawn

Katiestar, are you a practising Christian? I am guessing so from your response. Actually 70% of the population may be sit on the fence woolly apathetic Christians in the loosest possible sense, or they may be atheists or agnostics. We can't be sure because so many of us call ourselves Christian on census forms and suchlike because we've been conditioned to think we are Christian because our parents baptised us when we had no say in the matter, and our schools told us we were. If 70% of the population were truly Christian the our churches would be full to overflowing, and we would not have a country full of unmarried mothers. (Gawd, what a horrible old- fashioned phrase!) Let's turn your argument on its head and imagine your child goes to a school where 70% of the children were moonies or Scientologists, and because the law demanded a daily act of worship they had opted for a Scientific/Moonie assembly on the basis of catering for the majority. Or let's say you vote Tory and your child was forced to listen to Socialist Worker propaganda each morning? If your only option was to withdraw your child from what you considered to be unhealthy indoctrination, would you not feel a tad miffed that he was being excluded from an otherwise sociable and informative and useful part of the school day? It's like punishing him, or making an example of him for not following the masses. It's just unnessary and outdated.
So many people use Christianity as a moral baby-sitter.(or any religion in fact) They think that because it is a useful tool in teaching children morality, and right from wrong, then as they can't actually bothered to worship because they find it all a bit heavy going, and besides they are not entirely sure it isn't rubbish, they can feel reassured that their children are being indoctrinated at school because it'll make them a decent person, with values. Well what a lazy load of old tosh. It is entirely possible to bring your children up as honest decent compassionate and responsible individuals without the influence of a deity to set their boundaries.
Is that not what the overwhelming majority of us aim to do?

bloss, I don't have a problem with Christianity generally honestly, but I find what you've just said appalling! The bible is full of good people, honoured because they love God, who do bad stuff?
That's got to be the laziest get out clause of all time! So you can be an absolute arsehole but so long as you love God all will be fine and dandy. On the other had those who may be thoroughly decent and good, but fail to acknowledge God? And anyway, what is the difference between a good man who does bad stuff and a bad man?

It strikes me that your God has some rather warped and egotistical priorities.

That was on the other hand....Flippin' heck!! Give me an edit feature! Who goes back and previews their posts in the heat of the moment?

Indoctrination for me would be making them say it and then not letting them ever say anything against religion outside the assembly hall, never allowing them to mention another religion and slaying them them for saying they don't believe in it. This IMHO is just parrotting.

Anyway, sorry, I wouldn't like this to turn into a you're wrong I'm right kind of thing. You have a very good point that there is no place for religion in a non-faith school and they should be including all faiths if they have to do it at all. I think we all want our kids to be able to make up their own mind about religion and all that tosh and not have their heads banged about it. I'm not even a mum yet!

happywomble You have spoke the most sense on this thread and i totally agree with your comments. Children should be given the chance to form their own opinions on what they do or don't believe. Dh and i are at opposite ends of the spectrum but he children can choose for themselves.

In response to the op. I think yabu... if your not happy take dc out. School is about learning about a variety of things, what will you do if you don't like the "history" lessons, complain about that too.

Tiggy -
Church schools tend to be very popular, they probably have fewer behavioural problems than other schools and get good academic results..so having a religious ethos at school appears a good thing to me. I think this may be the reason people who are not churchgoers are still happy for their children to go to a school with a religious ethos.

There's a world of difference between history lessons in which people of all faiths and beliefs can take part, and which is factual. And prayers of one particular religion which make others feel excluded and which naturally divide the children.

Barnsleybelle - thank you for your lovely post..I was beginning to feel rather lonely on this thread!!

Church schools tend to be selective in one way or another...

I suspect that any school which gets to pick and choose it's pupils will naturally result in improved behaviour.

And peachy we'll have to agree to disagree on that one...