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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To tell my son that he doesn't have to pray?

226 replies

SweetAudrina · 10/02/2009 18:51

DS goes to a normal state primary. Not a religious school.

Yet the kids are forced to pray a Christian prayer every assembly. Even the athiest/muslim/hindu kids etc.

I have told DS he doesn't have to pray but he should sit still and quiet whilst other people do. However today he was told off for not praying!!

If the teacher asks me about it (as DS told her I said he didn't have to) am I going to come across a "difficult" parent who is just trying to cause trouble or am I justified in thinking that kids shouldn't be FORCED to pray?

OP posts:
Ronaldinhio · 11/02/2009 20:16

I wasn't into the God stuff but had to put up with it at school it seems strange that 10+ years of hardcore religious hothousing resulted in little old meh me.

Don't sweat it and make it a non issue.

happywomble · 11/02/2009 20:27

I like things the way they are too piscesmoon!

I am also a piscean! (assume you are from your username)

TiggyR · 11/02/2009 21:00

It's an absolute mystery to me why, in Britain today we still feel it is necessary to force a daily act of worship on children who may or may not have expressed a desire for one. Personally I am in strong favour of all state education being entirely secular. I think faith schools are divisive and encourage sectarianism and intolerance. If a parent wishes their child to have instruction in a specific religion the place for that is in the home and in the relevant place of worship.

All religions should be discussed, considered and and evaluated in equal measure in a state school environment, as part of a greater exploration into morality philosophy and sociology. Having said that, I think it's important that children are taught to show tolerance and respect toward those who wish to pray, irrespective of whom they pray to. Equally, there is nothing wrong in asking children to spend a few moments in quiet reflection and contemplation whilst they absorb whatever is the moral message of the day - so long as it is broached in the broadest of contexts. Those children who genuinely have a faith could use that time to converse with their idol of choice if they so wished but it should not be assumed that they wish to direct their thoughts to any God, least of all a God specified by the school or the government! I'd like to see kids taught to analyse how and why religion affects and influences mankind globally (which to be fair I think it largely is these days) Not to be told 'We think this, and we are right. They think that, and they are wrong and deluded but we must respect their right to be wrong and deluded.'
It does piss me off that your average British kid of non-Asian/African/Arab extraction is assumed to be C of E unless they offer evidence to the contrary! It seems if you don't nail your child's colours to the mast he's fair game. I don't get on my high horse and withdraw my kids from assemblies because generally I have no big issues with the very generalised mainstream Christian ethos they are fed, but if I did I'd be wanting to know if they considered it perfectly acceptable to influenced my children politically as well, while they were at it!

Nightcrawly · 11/02/2009 21:40

Well said TiggyR

piscesmoon · 11/02/2009 22:28

Perhaps Pisces like to go with the flow happywomble! If you take the central theme of Christianity-love your neighbour-I can't see much wrong with it in schools!

solidgoldbullet4myvalentine · 11/02/2009 23:41
TheFallenMadonna · 11/02/2009 23:46

I've asked this question before, and I can't remember the ansers . If there a groundswell of support for secularisation, why hasn't it been picked up by a political party do you think? Because it doesn't seem to be a political issue at all really. Do people lobby their MPs about the daily act of collective worship for example?

TheFallenMadonna · 11/02/2009 23:47

answers

and any other typos in there...

piscesmoon · 12/02/2009 06:42

I would guess that people are not really bothered TheFallenMadonna, they moan but don't do anything because they could join the secular society
home page here they actively campaign.

solidgoldbullet4myvalentine · 12/02/2009 13:00

It's basically about the Govt not wanting to upset the Daily Fucking Mail again - The Mail is currently completely in thrall to a couple of loony Christian organisations who are behind most of these poor-persectured Christian stories (who, in every case, turn out to be nasty little shits who have had whatever disciplinary action they suffered coming to them for a long time). So any attempt to de-bullshit schools would have the Mail and the loonies stirring up as much trouble as possible, and persuading that reasonably large (but not that large) number of people who are vaguely, agnostically, culturally Christian, that they are Under Attack.

onagar · 12/02/2009 13:32

Assembly is for other things too. Saying "if you won't pray to our god you can't come to assembly" is no better than saying "if you won't pray to our god you can't use the public library".

I know some people think we make too much fuss so let's try this. Tomorrow morning let's have every school pray to Satan. Promising obedience to him in all things and thanking him for everything we have. Is everyone ok about that or will they make a fuss?

happywomble · 12/02/2009 13:50

People of all sides of the political spectrum are happy with school assemblies along broadly christian lines. I think its really sad that some people on this thread are so blinkered that they cannot see the benefit of school assembly.

Singing a hymn in the morning is uplifting and I don't think most children are thinking in depth about the words. (If you think of your favourite pop songs do you like them because of the words or the tune?) I have such happy memories of some primary school hymns such as:

we plough the fields and scatter (at harvest)
one more step along the world I go
and many more

The sung version of the Lords Prayer is also very uplifting.

I find some of the modern things like Shine Jesus shine a bit naff but Ds loves them!

If you don't want christian hymns..what alternative songs would you sing?

Prayers - these encourage children to sit still and think of others, and to be grateful for the good things in life - another positive thing.

Talk by head or class assembly..I'm sure the children benefit by learning something new and I doubt most schools always use a bible story.

Many of the bible parables are good advice for life whether you believe in god or not.

Of course other faiths should be taught in schools too and I think they are.

If you don't like school assemblies would you rather your children just spent the whole day doing literacy and numeracy or what.

happywomble · 12/02/2009 13:57

ps

OP and others who don't like prayers at school. Do you think nativity plays should be scrapped too?

onagar · 12/02/2009 13:59

Happywomble, are you okay with occasionally making it a satanist assembly then? After all they won't really listen to the words so no harm done.

What you seem to have missed is that some of us regard your bible as a nasty piece of fiction that should be on the top shelf out of reach of childen.

Nativity plays as plays are fine, but since the kids are told the events really happened they are propaganda used to perpetuate a cult. Keep them as plays by all means.

CoteDAzur · 12/02/2009 13:59

We had school assemblies that were basically talent shows - one student would dance, another would sing, yet another would play the piano.

onagar · 12/02/2009 14:02

CoteDAzur, now that sounds like fun!

CoteDAzur · 12/02/2009 14:06

"central theme of Christianity - love your neighbour"

Ho ho ho.

That is the central theme, is it?

Like, more 'central' than belief in God? Belief that Jesus was his offspring? All those silly myths of virgin birth, resurrection, etc?

solidgoldbullet4myvalentine · 12/02/2009 14:15

Happywomble, there are loads of songs that DC could sing in an assembly, such as Yellow Submarine, Good Morning Sunshine, Head Shoulders Knees and Toes, Brown Girl IN the Ring... Singing together is enjoyable and has benefits, but there is no need at all for the songs sung to be peddling superstition. How would you feel about a quick Vaudun or Wiccan or Hindu or Muslim or Santeria or Shinto ceremony once a week? I'm sure they involve singing and dancing and interesting stories with morals, as well.
For many rational people, it's not just about being not Christians, it's about knowing that Christianity has too much misogyny, homophobia and racism inherent in much of its mythology for it to be something we are happy about our children being force-fed.

happywomble · 12/02/2009 14:18

So cote d'azur and onagar how would the satanist assembly go and how would it encourage children to lead their lives in a manner that cares for others? What uplifting songs would you sing?

Most people don't believe the bible word for word. But I think there would be a minority who would dismiss it completely. Whether you believe in god or not the morals contained in it seem useful to follow.

And what harm does a broadly Christian assembly do your children?

Don't know where you have taken the love thy neighbour bit from but if everyone followed it there would be fewer wars..

CoteDAzur · 12/02/2009 14:23

Hey, I didn't say anything recommending a satanist assembly.

And I believe onagar's point was not that satanist sings would be uplifting but that it is nonsense to suggest prayer singing doesn't matter because nobody listens to words anyway.

happywomble · 12/02/2009 14:24

well I like brown girl in a ring but maybe more appropriate for the school disco!

If you read my previous post I said I was in favour of children learning about other religions such as hinduism etc..and if that means learning a chant or dance fine!

twinmam · 12/02/2009 14:24

There would be even far fewer wars if there was no bloody religion (to paraphrase John Lennon but with pretty awful grammar - sorry)

solidgoldbullet4myvalentine · 12/02/2009 14:26

Well Happywomble, it teaches the DC that mythology is fact, that women and gay people are inferior to heterosexual men, and that there's an invisible thingy in the sky that you have to say nice things about or somethign bad will happen to you. Not the sort of crap I really want my DS learning, thanks.

tumtumtetum · 12/02/2009 14:28

happywomble this thread was about children being forced to recite the lord's prayer and told off if they would rather sit quietly and not join in. About children of other faiths also being taught the lord's prayer by rote and expected to recite it every morning.

Do you really think that is fine?

happywomble · 12/02/2009 14:41

I think it is fine to say the lords prayer (preferably the nice original version) in assembly..if people don't want their children to say it the children should not be forced to but should sit quietly while others do... Those of other religions don't have to attend the assemblies..I'm sure they don't have to.

I don't expect Ops Ds was forced to pray...he was probably fidgeting and putting other people off. If he was forced to say the words that was wrong.