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AIBU?

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Original poster

To tell my son that he doesn't have to pray?

226 replies

SweetAudrina · 10/02/2009 18:51

DS goes to a normal state primary. Not a religious school.

Yet the kids are forced to pray a Christian prayer every assembly. Even the athiest/muslim/hindu kids etc.

I have told DS he doesn't have to pray but he should sit still and quiet whilst other people do. However today he was told off for not praying!!

If the teacher asks me about it (as DS told her I said he didn't have to) am I going to come across a "difficult" parent who is just trying to cause trouble or am I justified in thinking that kids shouldn't be FORCED to pray?

OP posts:
tumtumtetum · 10/02/2009 21:20

It seems strange to have changed it really - I mean the church is kind of about tradition and you don't get more traditional than the lord's prayer.

Incidentally it was a catholic school I learnt it at and all the church things I've been to in recent years have been catholic as well - so it's not an anglican thing - which is even more surprising. Hard to imagine the pope waking up one morning and saying "I know, let's change the prayer".

spongebrainbigpants · 10/02/2009 21:41

Kerry, that makes sense

edam, love your new version of the Lord's Prayer!

MrsFreud · 10/02/2009 21:47

OP I told my dd not to pray if she doesn't want to, as we are not religious. I have heard from teachers that she doesn't and I am proud of her for standing up for what she believes in and she is only 7!

ravenAK · 10/02/2009 21:50

Schools are required to have a religious observance of a 'broadly Christian' nature - it's honoured more in the breach than the observance.

I would absolutely withdraw my dc from any act of religious participation (unless/
until they decide for themselves they want to be involved).

If it's a case of a prayer being said & pupils being required to show good manners & be quiet & respectful, then fair enough - it's what I do if I attend a religious ceremony.

But at such a silly & divisive law! I think someone's previously posted a link to a campaign by the secular society on a similar thread.

Hulababy · 10/02/2009 21:53

In DD's school, which is a CofE school, they are told that the prayer time is time for quiet reflection. If they believe in what is said then they may say Amen at the end. If they don;t it is not commented on though.

chegirl · 10/02/2009 22:17

TumT

It doesnt really bother me TBH. The church has evolved in lots of ways over the last couple of thousand years. I like tradition but not just for tradition's sake IYSWIM.

There are loads of different types of churches even with the CofE church. Some are much more 'high' than others and they tend to stick to the older versions, have more inscense, ritual etc. I prefer a slightly more errrm simple approach. I dont want to offend anyone by implying one is better than the other. Its all down to what suits. TBH I prefer to not have much asked of me from my church. Very British I know, I will go to church, just dont make a fuss . I suppose what I am wittering on about is that I like it a bit low key. At my last church I hardly saw a Bible. Its hard to explain but its more about the spirit of the thing than the accessories (oh blimey I dont mean the Bible is just some sort of bauble }

Back to the point. Lots of hymns etc get changed a bit over the years. Prayers are modified and even the Bible has been messed about with a fair bit.

piscesmoon · 10/02/2009 22:38

There is no such thing as a secular state school in this country. People make the mistake of thinking because it isn't a church school it is secular, it is simply non denominational. It is very clear in the 1998 (hope I have the right year)Education Act, schools are breaking the law if they don't hold collective worship and it sets out the percentage that has to be Christian (the biggest chunk). RE is the only subject that has to be taught by law. You can withdraw your child from RE lessons and assembly if you wish.

edam · 10/02/2009 22:46

I don't know why the people who do this sort of thing are so busy taking all the beauty out of church services. The language of the King James Bible and the Book of Common Prayer is just so incredibly powerful. My generation coped with trespasses, I think it's a tad patronising to think that the youth of today can't deal with 'thy' (and it is still a word used in everyday speech up North, replacing it is typical London-centric thinking grumble grumble grumble).

Beautiful, astonishing language is appropriate if one is worshipping one's creator, IMO. (I am not saying I necessarily believe it. Which may disqualify me from having an opinion. Except that it's the ruddy established church so it belongs to ALL of us, active CofE or not.)

ChippingIn · 10/02/2009 22:56

I agree with most everyone here. I would check with the teachers first to make sure you're not getting a slightly bent version of the truth , but if you aren't, I'd certainly have something to say. Sitting nicely while they all do their bit (I don't even close my eyes - rebel!) is fine, being told off is not.

Also agree - why change the Lords Prayer... it's the only bit of religion I am (was?) comfortable with - Oh and I can still recite the books of the old testament (they must have beaten that into me well as I was 8 when I left the school that taught that!!).

solidgoldbullet4myvalentine · 10/02/2009 23:31

Another vote here for the King James version of the text if you are going to have it - lovely, resonant prose as opposed to the yucky modern version which sounds like the minutes of a council meeting. And I say that as a hardline atheist who had to put up with enough church guff in my schooldays...

But I think most schools have a reasonable attitude towards the superstitous bollockery they have to inflict on their pupils once a day ie that as long as the pupils sit quietly for it, they are allowed to be indifferent to it. It sounds like the OP's got a bit of an evangelical for a head teacher...

TheOldestCat · 10/02/2009 23:40

Another one disqualified from having an opinion on the wording of the Lord's Prayer, as a non-believer. But that modern version is so soulless (and I translate things into plain English for a living); the King James version so much more beautiful and resonant.

Although maybe people complained the first time it was read in English rather than Latin!

OP - are you going to have a chat with your son's school? I hope they can respect his and your views on the situation.

debs40 · 10/02/2009 23:41

I found this interesting as I was in a similar position with ds1's school last year.

We chose this school because it was a non-faith infant school - a rarity where we live as all schools are church funded/aided.

Anyway, despite its non-faith status, we discovered it had a heavy religious bent - mainly because of the very vocal and middle class minority attached to the school who were extremely active in a local church and also because it feeds in to the C of E junior school next door.

The school definitely blurred the line between fact and belief in teaching in lessons. In assemblies, they asked the children to pray every day and the Head said they weren't forced because she would say afterwardsd 'say Amen if you agree'. Mmm I thought that was very dishonest. What 5 year old understands this means they don't have to participate in worship

I raised these issues with the Head. It went down like a LEAD balloon. Soon after we moved.

You can't change the school. Be warned!!

UnquietDad · 10/02/2009 23:47

I'm not a big fan of praying, but if you are going to do it, use the proper bloody words! All this "forgive our sins" shite. It's trespasses! Trespasses, I tell you!! Not that it really matters because you're not talking to anyone but yourself, but still...

Did anyone else's headteacher say "hands together, eyes closed?" when they were at school?

Anyway, to the OP - not unreasonable. He should be allowed just to sit and think if he wants to.

TheOldestCat · 10/02/2009 23:50

I had a teacher at junior school who told me that as a non-christened child, if my parents died I would have no godparents to look after me! I was 8 and it haunted me for ages. He got told off for focusing too much on RE at the expense of Welsh, and looking back he did blur those lines between fact and faith debs40 mentions.

TheOldestCat · 10/02/2009 23:51

Ah well, UnquietDad - what about the LATIN version eh, eh?

UnquietDad · 10/02/2009 23:53

The bloody Bible and Book of Common Prayer should have bloody thees and thous and trespasses and smiting and that's an end to it. All these liberal do-gooders trying to make it all "modern" and "relevant". They'll be wearing jeans in church next.

LadyGlencoraPalliser · 11/02/2009 00:02

And playing guitars, UQD. I've heard that might happen.

steviesgirl · 11/02/2009 00:03

YANBU. A child should not be forced to do anything they don't feel comfortable in doing; especially if they aren't raised in a Christian family.

I'm Christian and would encourage my child to pray at school, but it's down to families personal beliefs and wishes what they do. If it's an ordinary state school then I don't see what right the teachers have in forcing a child to pray. Assholes.

Tortington · 11/02/2009 00:04

i think you should ask the teacher WWJD?

cos i think jesus was well into the forcefull participation of communication with god....not.

LadyGlencoraPalliser · 11/02/2009 00:08

The trouble is Custardo, she may well be one of those who thinks they have their own personal hotline to the Almighty. She won't need to ask WWJD - she knows.

ThePgHedgeWitchIsCrankyBeware · 11/02/2009 00:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Tortington · 11/02/2009 00:15

the she knows SHES GOING TO HHHEEEEEEEEEEEEELLL

HA HAA HAA HAA

CuddlyKelpie · 11/02/2009 00:46

When my son attended a CofE school he would regularly come home asking questions about religion, on one occasion I was sick of hearing about it and suggested he ask 'What about Darwin?' when next they drilled him with the Lord's prayer.

I would raise it with the head, if it is a non religious school there shouldn't be any particular emphasis on one religion?

piscesmoon · 11/02/2009 07:38

You really should read the Education act-this is a Christian country (you probably don't come across it until they go to school) and a huge proportion has to be Christian.It tells you how much and also how Heads can change it-there are lots of rules about it and channels to go through.Schools are not non religious they are non denominational.

thomsc · 11/02/2009 09:30

Not read ALL the posts, but just a couple of quick comments.

Whilst the teacher is wrong to have insisted the OP's son prayed...

Prayers of a broadly Christian theme as well as Christian songs were certainly the norm in State schools of my experience in the 70's, and I imagine the majority of posters here attended similar schools.

In Britain the Head of State is also the Head of the Church of England, so I see no contradiction in Christian prayers at a State school. This is not a secular country.

Oh, and I'm an atheist.

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