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AIBU?

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Original poster

To tell my son that he doesn't have to pray?

226 replies

SweetAudrina · 10/02/2009 18:51

DS goes to a normal state primary. Not a religious school.

Yet the kids are forced to pray a Christian prayer every assembly. Even the athiest/muslim/hindu kids etc.

I have told DS he doesn't have to pray but he should sit still and quiet whilst other people do. However today he was told off for not praying!!

If the teacher asks me about it (as DS told her I said he didn't have to) am I going to come across a "difficult" parent who is just trying to cause trouble or am I justified in thinking that kids shouldn't be FORCED to pray?

OP posts:
sameagain · 11/02/2009 09:46

Depends what he was doing when he wasn't praying. If he was sitting quietly , head bowed respectfully, how did teacher know he wasn't praying.

womblingfree · 11/02/2009 12:30

We're practsiing Christians, but I think it's nonsense to suggest a child joins in for the sake of it, providing they are not disrupting anyone elses prayer time.

Out of interest though - is it your son that is bothered by it, or yourself?

TheOldestCat · 11/02/2009 12:34

It's good for him to sit head bowed, quiet etc (like sameagain says) during prayers - teaches respect and is good practice for years at church/other religious weddings in years to come. The time to reflect might make him want to find out more about Christianity, who knows?

I've learned a lot from this thread - had no idea that non-faith state schools are required to include some Christian worship (as opposed to religious education).

cory · 11/02/2009 13:11

UnquietDad on Tue 10-Feb-09 23:47:04
"I'm not a big fan of praying, but if you are going to do it, use the proper bloody words!"

As a Classicist I cannot applaud this stance enough! Compulsory lessons in New Testament Greek from Reception, Biblical Hebrew can probably wait until Year 1. More money for dead languages- Yeahhh!!!

solidgoldbullet4myvalentine · 11/02/2009 13:58

I don;t see why a child should be obliged to bow his head when others are praying as long as he(or she) keeps quiet and still. I never bow my head in a church unless I'm quietly reading a book while the boring bits are going on.

onebatmother · 11/02/2009 14:05

Bloody hell, if they are forcing Muslim children to pray they are forcing them to do something which is expressly forbidden to them by their own religion (and therefore surely breaking the law)

They do have to provide a collective act of worship but they have no duty to coerce children into actually doing so.

Many schools pay lip service to the act by having a time of reflection which is non-denominational. They don't get prosecuted if they don't have a christian assembly - i think the worst is that they lose some Ofsted points.

(asked to go in to talk about atheism once and was politely refused..)

Hulababy · 11/02/2009 16:11

DD's school still says "hands together, eyes closed"

And they say grace at lunch time.

And they sing a goodbye prayer in infants too:

"Hands together, softly so
Little eyes hut tight
Father just befre we go
Hear our prayers tonight"

I remeber doing all of the above when in primary school, state school, not church school, back in the late 70s.

piscesmoon · 11/02/2009 17:45

I had the wrong year for the education act, it was 1988 not 1998. If you think back to your school days nothing much has changed.
No one can actually tell if OP's DC was praying or not, I expect that what he is being told to do is sit still and be silent for that part of assembly.
Someone asked about Muslims-I thought they might like the link to advice for Muslims.
this page

It isn't just a few Ofsted points-they are breaking the law if they ignore the guide lines, it is compulsory which is why you have the right to withdraw your child.

MrsFreud · 11/02/2009 17:52

hmm why don't they just put creationisalism on the syllabus and be done with it?

Seriously, so what if we are a christian country (whatever that means)? everyone picks and chooses what it means to be christian and seeing as most of us adult do not pray everyday why the hell should we make our children??

jemart · 11/02/2009 18:09

How can you be forced to pray? if he doesn't want to join in all he has to do is sit quietly.

Conversely Schools have been inflicting bits of non-christian faiths on kids in assembly for years, I remember being made to sing various songs from other faiths despite the fact that none of the student body were of those faiths, why is it always the christian stuff that gets axed in the name of inclusiveness?

Smithagain · 11/02/2009 18:16

"Hands together, eyes closed, don't forget to pick your nose."

Or was that just me

whenigrowupiwanttobe · 11/02/2009 18:21

If you don't like it you should ask that he is pulled out of assembly.

I can't see the fuss myself. If I was an Atheist I would encourage my children to use the prayer time as an opportunity to reflect on what they have to be thankful for, you don't have to be religious to do that do you?

noonki · 11/02/2009 18:26

YANBU at all.

I steadfast refused to sing hymns or say prayers at my school (church of england...it was that or a catholic school no other options).

I used to argue about it with the teachers at middle school, as I felt it was wrong that as an atheist I had to pray.

(my parents were strongly practising athesists ) that it went against all of my beliefs.

The muslim, jewish and sikh kids didnt have to but apparently I did as I was a 'christian' by fact that I wasnt anything else iyswim (I didn't!)

onebatmother · 11/02/2009 18:45

wigupwtb - he's being made to say the prayer. He's not being allowed to do 'quiet reflection', that's the OP's point I think.

CoteDAzur · 11/02/2009 18:46

I'm amazed at the place of religion your schools, especially the bit about forced inclusion of kids from other religions in Christian assemblies/prayers.

I went to school in Turkey, a country that has 99% Muslim population but is secular by constitution. Obviously not a shining beacon of democracy and personal freedom, but even there there was none of this forcing of one religion on all kids.

We had 1 hour per week of 'Religion' class, which was mostly about the history of Islam, but also had overviews on Christianity, Judaism etc. Students from other religions passed this hour in the library, doing whatever they pleased - reading books, writing their diaries, etc.

piscesmoon · 11/02/2009 18:54

Britain isn't a secular country. State and church are bound together, the Queen is head of both. The Prime Minister appoints bishops. Cof E is the state religion and they are state schools.
The child can't be forced to pray but he will be expected to sit still.

LynetteScavo · 11/02/2009 18:59

piscesmoon, quite right.

DS2 goes to a non religous state shcool, and quite a lot of praying goes on. I'm quite sure harldy any, if any children do actually "pray" when they are asked to put their hand together and close their eyes.

I certainly never actually prayed at school.

CoteDAzur · 11/02/2009 19:04

How quaint.

And British people don't rebel against this and change a few laws... why? It seems archaic in this day and age.

piscesmoon · 11/02/2009 19:04

I would be very surprised if many children pray! The younger ones also completely miss the distinction of 'make this your prayer if you want to'.

I think that the problem comes from people not having anything to do with religion in their everyday lives and then they suddenly hit it when their DC goes to school and it comes as a shock to find that Britain is a Christian country.They expect it to have changed from when they were at school and some things haven't.

piscesmoon · 11/02/2009 19:06

There is a secular society CoteDAzur, people need to join it if they want changes. I like things the way they are, maybe the majority do.

sameagain · 11/02/2009 19:11

Solidgold - he (and you) should have his head bowed 1, because that way he and others are not distracted, but mainly because it shows respect (and good manners). In the same way that I would expect to follow what the Muslims (or atheists) were doing if I was at one of their religious ceremonies. I wouldn't be following thier prayers, but I certainly wouldn't be rude enough to be outwardly dismissing them.

I absolutely respect his (or his parents') right not to follow a religion and not to pray, but it is a matter for world peace surely that we all respect other religions and teaching children to bow their heads in school assemblies is a very small part of teaching that IMO. He will have occasions when he has to attend church and no reason why he shouldn't learn the correct way to behave while he's there.

CoteDAzur · 11/02/2009 19:28

Even if majority are happy their children are forced to pray (which I doubt), surely they can't be too happy that the minority non-Christians are being forced to pray as well.

CoteDAzur · 11/02/2009 19:29

Respect is great but parents can easily see forced presence of their children in Christian assemblies as brainwashing.

tumtumtetum · 11/02/2009 20:10

I think the reason we are all upset about this is that as a nation we don't "do" religion.

If people want to practice whatever religion then that's fine, as long as they do it quietly and don't start on about it.

We are OK with being a Christian nation overall, which is indisputedly what we are, but prefer to have a bit of traditional ceremonial stuff and leave it at that.

We don't "do" mass vocal worshipping, at least if we do we do it with other like-minded people tucked away somewhere.

The school thing is shocking as it's real in your face, whether you like it or not, and whatever religion you are.

It's just not how things are done. It makes lots of people feel uncomfortable. We could change the law, yes, but that would mean drawing attention to it and having a great big debate which would only lead to conflict and so we carry on quietly as we are, being Christian overall as a nation but not really expecting people to do anything about it except in their own time.

All IMVHO obviously.

TheOldestCat · 11/02/2009 20:12

Very interesting, tumumtetum. It wouldn't be very blighty of us to make a fuss....