to wish people wouldn't tell women who are ttc to "relax and it might happen naturally/I know so many people who gave up and then fell pregnant"?

[wannaBe]

Because if it really was that simple then there would be no infertility treatment/no need to spend years and years trying for a baby you cannot have.

I do realize that people are trying to be helpful.

But I do also think that it gives a lot of false hope to people where there is none.

Because while there are of course women who forget about ttc and end up falling pregnant naturally, there are a lot more who don't.

Madamdeathstare: really? Stress plays a role in infertility? Do tell. Give us some research, while you're T it. Also, let us know what you define as stress. It's such a vague term, people use it to mean all sorts of things. And then I suppose, conversely, all those who get pregnant easily are laid back, relaxed, unstressed people.

You know, you can use this phrase "stress plays a role in a, b, c" for just about anything... Said that vaguely, it's really a meaningless comment to make.

Surely if stress played a role in infertility then no one would get pregnant through IVF? It's a pretty stressful procedure. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that you could ask almost anyone who has gone through a cycle and they'll tell you that it was one of the most stressful times of their life. The cocktail of drugs, the physical impact of those drugs, scans, bloodtests and procedures and the emotional burden; the fear of facing the pain of a failed cycle. The fear as you acknowledge that you are in the last chance saloon of biological reproduction. The worry deep in the marrow of you that this could be your only chance at parenthood. The sadness through you that you can't give the person you love a baby.

Can I say any more to convince you how stressful it is? And yet IVF worked for me when all the relaxing holidays had passed and failed me, so how does that work? And my friend, eight years on and the girl at the party standing at my shoulder, she's had 8 failed cycles now and they've given up long ago. They've done their 'goodbye' holidays in hot, lonely places and they're on the adoption route now so, by rights, they should be falling pregnant naturally shouldn't they? Only they're not; they haven't and they never will. Because life isn't tidy and for ever miracle story that gets trotted out as a chiding reproach to all these infertile people making a song and dance about having a baby, there are those for whom there is no magic, for whom there is no happy ending.

People in the most stressful jobs get pregnant at the drop of a hat, as do drug addicts, the unhealthy, etc.. As I said before, biology is random and subtle and that's probably what is so sad about infertility; it's not your 'fault' and you can't change it, although you move mountains and turn rivers in your efforts to try to.

I wish people would just project and empathise. Think for two minutes about how they'd REALLY feel if they were infertile or their son or daughter couldn't have children. That's really all it takes - a moment to stop and acknowledge that there but for the grace of God/chance/biology go I.

I understand what you are saying, kitstwins, but you have to understand that for a lot of people it isn't the end of the world.

There are people who have dc, sometimes unplanned, sometimes planned, who have mixed feelings about what that has done to their lives.

And there are others (like I was) who are told when they are young that they will not be parents and accept the fact, and are OK with it.

It's hard to understand from those positions just why people are getting so obsessed with ttc sometimes.

but then surely the answer is to just say nothing? because tbh i would rather that than well-meaning but hollow "advice" from those with hyperactive reproductive organs.

if you dont understand why people get so obssessed and upset about ttc then thank yourself lucky that you have never been in that position.

I think, that unless you have been there yourself, it is actually utterly impossible to imagine the impact of not being able to conceive has on a person.

I felt like I was slowly dying inside, everyone was fallig pregnant around me, there were beautiful pregnant women everywhere, I'd spend my entire commute to and from work giving up seats to blossoming pregnant women, all my friends were pregnant/had newborns, heck every flipping famous woman was having babies too, Gwenyth Paltrow (she fell pregnant as soon as she got off the pill apparently, according to an interview), the spice girls were popping out babies heck even madonna was pregnant everyone in the entire world but me, and there was nowhere I could hide away from it.

Personally, when ex-inlaws kept asking why I wasn't pg, I felt that was criticism of me and my ability to have children, it somehow made me feel like a failure as a woman... Obviously non of this is true, like kitstwins says it could happen to anyone, however unless you've been there I don't think its possible to imagine the huge impact it has on your life, how all consuming it can become.

I have a friend who has spent years trying to conceive and it's so bad for her now that she just does not want to know when other friends are pregnant, I ache to say/do something to help her, but really there is nothing I can do to take the pain away from her...

Well, I've never said anything to a close friend who had loads of failed IVF cycles because I knew she and I felt differently about things - and by the same token she was nice enough to not say anything to me when I talked about adoption (she had a bad experience with an adopted sibling).

But at times it did feel weird to just say nothing when I knew she was probably going through hell.

And yes, I do count myself lucky that my marriage was enough for me, and I did not need dc to feel 'complete'. When ds came, he was a wonderful added bonus. As would another. However, that is unlikely to happen and OK as well.

I completely agree with wannabe and many others - YANBU

Also - if you know someone who you know is ttc, they haven't, its been ages but they don't talk about it - take the hint. They don't want to talk to you about it. 'When are you going to have a baby? Are you still trying?' isn't a nice thing to say.

To answer ib?s post, I guess in your own situation it?s something you grew up with and accepted (I?m very sorry btw). But I think that people who have children and became pg with no problems tend to be very blasé about the whole thing. They have never had to think about it very much. What particularly used to upset me was hearing people complaining about hard it was being a parent, when all I could think was ?I wish it was me?. For women like me and many others it comes as a complete shock which is very very hard to deal with. I even used to find myself wishing I could just get pregnant even if I subsequently miscarried (what a terrible thing to think) because I figured that people might understand that kind of pain a bit better. Although now I realise that people can be almost as insensitive about that.

Comments like the OP refers to used to really upset me when I was ttc. But then what happened to me? We started the adoption process, decided against it and decided to have one more shot at ttc. We were booked into the infertility clinic, stopped worrying about ttc until we?d had more investigations, went on holiday, and a month later I was pregnant.

Do I think it was just because we relaxed? Um no. I do think it was partly down to me getting a tentative diagnosis of PCOS (following a scan) and being taken seriously at last. It did take the pressure of me a bit, because I no longer expected to get pg without help. But at the end of the day, I think it was down to luck. After many years of exceptional bad luck we finally got lucky. Some people get lucky the first time, some after a year, some after 4 years (us), some never . A natural and random spread of normality.

Obviously the PCOS (if I had it) was not bad enough to prevent me getting pregnant, so luck had a chance to play its part. When there is something physically wrong that is preventing pregnancy, then any talk of relaxing, luck etc. is obviously complete rubbish.

Madamdeathstare - I agree with you. I do think stress can play a part in fertility problems, and I think it is a known fact that stress can affect hormone levels. My hormones were unstable for years and it did start soon after we started ttc. Suddenly my periods were all over the place - was that PCOS, was it stress, was it stress causing PCOS (most likely option IMO).

The reason I don't put my pregnancy down to reduced stress is that I was still under a lot of stress. I hated my job, for example, and was finding life in general very difficult. I don't believe a single two week holiday could make such a difference, although we did both feel a lot better afterwards. I think it would require a sustained period of reduced stress to have an effect, as happened in your case I think?

So sorry to hear of all the sad things people have gone through.

The insensitive things some people say are absolutely unbelieveable, and inexcusable in my opinion.

I've got a DD and am TTC a 2nd child. Have just had my 3rd MC (not including the one I had before my DD, which makes it 4). I have also had a gutful of "nature's way" type comments.

My DOCTOR said to me "sometimes miscarriage is the best thing..."

(erm, excuse me?)

"...I mean, if you had had the baby then it might have had something wrong with it".

FFS, why oh why oh WHY not just say "you poor thing, miscarriages are bloody horrendous".

THAT would sum it up, thank you.

Anyway, my sincere sypathies to all of you out there with infertlity/ miscarriage problems. It is bloody horrendous.

the thing is, many of us do know people who have had a rough time and it all seems to work out, and we tell these stories onto other people because we want to give hope / support, even though we all know that it doesn't happen naturally or even IVF for everybody.

PS, Wannabe - no, YANBU!

Well then Elf, take heed from this thread. It doesn't help, and doesn't feel supportive.

Elf, would 2nd what LP says - it doesn't give hope or support and you're hearing that from people who know exactly how it feels. So please remember that and don't repeat those stories to friends you know who are struggling to conceive.

It hurts, it doesn't help, and it's totally irrelevant. Just cos it happened for one lucky couple doesn't mean it's going to happen for me and any of the thousands of others for whom IVF is our only hope.

Plus, some people exaggerate their 'rough' time for dramatic effect and leave you thinking they've had a miracle pg when all they've had is a pg that took slightly longer than the norm.

If anyone is in any doubt after reading this thread about the wisdom of telling someone to 'relax and it will happen' then I despair!

For some people it does though, there have been threads before where people asked for those stories.

Its not really something I say, but I can see WHY people say it iyswim. Its the same way we tell stories about medical miracles when we know somebody who has an ill relative etc, because we feel some words are better than silence. My comments are usually "you know where I am if you want to talk" which can sometimes sound incredibly insensive and like I dont care, but at the end of the day, what do I know about it? I fell pg about 3mths coming off the pill, so I dont know what it is like to have a longer ttc period with no result / invasive tests / procedures etc.
I know if affects people I love. My sister is struggling ttc. My best friend has been told she is unlikely to conceive naturally.

ib - well then I guess if people ask for the stories, the message is wait until you're asked.

I would bet the majority of struggling couples do NOT want to be offered these "my friend's auntie's next door neighbour..." type stories.

They are patronising.

Elf: see, that's an important difference in our point of view. I never tell people struggling with a disease stories of medical miracles. The other thing you say- about not being able to understand etc. Well, there's such a thing as an imagination. And empathy.

Death: I'm really sorry. I didn't read your previous post. I misunderstood what you wrote. This is a very painful topic for a lot of us. I jumped in reaction when I heard stress mentioned. Really sorry.

When I wrote death, I meant madamedeathstare . Sorry for the horrid abbreviation.

ib, I would imagine they are in a very small minority!

I have never asked for miracle stories cos I know they are of no relevance to my situation at all. If I had asked then clearly I couldn't be upset if someone then told me one of these stories.

The medical miracles of illness is exaclty the same - and just as bad. When a close friend was dying from a brain tumour I got so sick of others telling me of stories of friends of friends of friends who had been told that they were going to die but made a miraculous recovery and were still alive twenty years on. My friend was dying, her tumour was grade 4, she lasted a year - no miracles.

I'm still amazed that there are people on here defending these crass statements where you have so many woman who know how it feels saying it doesn't help. Some people are so obtuse .