to tell ds to hit this little boy back??

[Nemoandthefishes]

little boy in ds class has been badly bullying one of ds friends for the last couple of months. However today he decided to punch ds in the stomach and then told him not to tell, so ds didnt until he punched him in the stomach again at which point he told the teacher whose answer was 'oh just ignore him'. So I have told ds if the little boy punches him again to hit him back usually I wouldnt have said this but ds has already been through a bullying incident since sept and only just got it sorted about 2 weeks ago.

so no, you are not being unreasonable. Tell him to sock it to him!

No, Msshadow, much better to teach your child that there are better ways of dealing with confict than just hitting out (or what is the difference between your child and the child who hit him?. Either hitting is wrong or it isn't. It's not any less wrong if you do it second rather than 1st. By teaching your child to hit (back) you are validating hitting (and therefore validating the bully in the first place).

It may also interest you to know that in the vast majority of cases bullies are victims of bullying themselves.

Parents who teach their child to hit back are a teacher's nightmare because they are actively undermining them and their schools and perpetuating violence as a way of dealing with anger etc.

It's also a nightmare to get to the bottom of who did it first. Although your child may say it wasn't him you can't always believe him and can't know he didn't provoke the other child. But also what if in 'retaliating' the child who was hit causes serious injury or pain to the hitter?

So it has to be a blanket rule - hitting is wrong. It's wrong when adults do it (criminal in fact). It's no less wrong when children do it.

So yes, tell the teacher (who can hardly help if they're unaware of the problem). If that doesn't get results go into school.

Telling your child to hit back is irresponsible, immature and counterproductive.

The question is, what is the difference between being attacked at defending yourself. And the answer is a lot!

Bullying is wrong. FFS we live in a world where people, especially boys, are violent. You might not like it but that's the reality. Teaching them the difference between bullying and self defence is essential. How utterly confusing for them otherwise!

This is why the whole idea of pacifism is truly repugnant for me

TBH I find 'bullying' unhelpful because it masks and equalises a range of behaviours which may be incredibly trivial (a one off name call) or very serious (persistent threats and violence).

If you'd ever tried to get to the bottom of a fight in a playground as a teacher you would not assume that there is always a clear distinctinction between the 'instigator' and the 'defender'. There very often isn't.

What is confusing is saying that violence is right sometimes. It isn't. It's always wrong. Hitting is wrong. It's wrong for adults so why should it be any less wrong when children do it?

Nobody here is saying that anyone should allow themselves to be a victim or that someone who hits or bullies should go unpunished but there are other and much better ways of 'defending' yourself than hitting back.

People, and especially boys, are highly competative. It will be this way throughout school. This is how boys sort out their status. It's not wanton violence, it's just healthy competitivness and conflict management. If you've never played these games, you don't learn the essential life lessons. Bullies are trying their luck. Yes, there are many ways of dealing with them, but defending yourself needs to be in there with the others.

I find your attitude bizarre and very sad. And if you see violence as 'healthy competitiion and conflict management' why do you have a problem with boy A hitting boy B in the first place?

As I say 'defending yourself' does not automatically (or ever in my view) mean violence.

Children need to be taught how to manage conflict without resorting to violence. This is an essential life skill.

If parents are not teaching their children this skill it's no wonder that there is violence and bullying in schools.

There is a very big differnence between competition and violence. Equating the two is dangerous and wrong.

Restructuring my sentences t your own agenda does not a coherant argument make 5, sorry.

Eh? I think it's your arguments that lack any sort of coherence MiTo.

As I say, it's not surprising that there's so much violence and bullying in the playground when children are given such confusing messages from the very people who should be teaching them how to manage anger and conflict.

Very, very sad.

You are entitled to your opjnion 5. Be assured I am not upset by your pity. You give it away too freely, if you ask me

My pity is for the children on the receiving end of some very confusing and questionable messages and their teachers and peers!

I hate this attitude but unfortunately it seems to be how things work... argh..

I would not tell DS to hit him back though. Maybe pin him down and sit on him or something

run for office quick!

What I mean is - telling him to defend himself is fine, telling him violence is OK is not. How about karate or something - it'll teach him to defend himself without actually having to hit anybody, and would do wonders for his confidence

Not you Sheeta

Just responding (in my wretchedness) to 5 candles. Another 40 lashes and a hair shirt for me!

I never said to tell them violence was "acceptable", however 5 wants to frame it. I'm getting a bit tired of zealots on here who haven;t the plain decency to simply disagree but feel they also must denounce people for disagreeing with them. Stench of a very weak argument.

MiTo what you said was,

'People, and especially boys, are highly competative. It will be this way throughout school. This is how boys sort out their status. It's not wanton violence, it's just healthy competitivness and conflict management.'

Now actually it's not clear what you mean by this. Is it that you're saying violence is natural and just one of those things?

But you also said that it is acceptable to use violence in retaliation. In fact what you said is tell your dc to 'sock it to him' which in my view however well meaning (!?) is a very dangerous message to give a child.

Either hitting is wrong or it isn't.

To say that there are other better ways of dealing with bullying or violence than hitting back is NOT the same as saying that people shouldn't stick up for themselves at all.

Thank you for clarifyling. Its still c;ear by that, that I don't tell kids that violece is accetpable without clauses.

Hitting is sometimes wrong and sometimes the right thing to do - especially if you are being attacked.

FGS we are not talking about 'self-defense' in a life or death situation, we are talking about a child being hit in the playground. In this situation there are always better things to do than hit back. Defending yourself verbally, walking away and telling an adult in a position of authority is the right thing to do and sends a clear message to the instigator. 1 hit = 1 hit (not justifiable) 2 hits = a fight

Did nobody ever tell you that 2 wrongs don't make a right?

And what if in 'retaliating' the second child seriously injurs the 1st. This often happens in my expereince as a teacher. Or nobody confesses to being the first to hit.

Or, typically, the bully is himself the victim of bullying (often by parents) so in telling a child to hit back you are validating his initial action rather than teaching him that there are other ways to deal with conflict.

I just don't understand adults behaving like children and not teaching their children that violence is wrong and there are better ways.

when it is your child that is the bullies target it is not easy to care about the bully.
If your child has been bullied over a long period of time and you have explored every avenue including telling the teacher, wtf should the child do, stand there and take it (just in case the poor bully is having a hard time at home) get real.
sometimes the only way your child can sort this out is to hit back.

It's hard when your child is a victim- I will be haunted all my days by the bruises I have seen on my boys (I knowds1 is no angel but ds2 doesn't have the same issues). But I cant honestly say i've thought to tell them to hit back, its the whole culture of violence that, except in sn cases, creates bullies.

I was pretty badly bullied at aschooland it was standing up tothem that stopped it: they moved on,sadly though to someone weaker and although at ten I just saw the lack of fear, at 35 i think about the poor sod that took my place.

The only real tactic is to keep taking it higher until you get joy. Head level worked for us, but governor ? LEA ? MP allwould have been approached.

The fact that the school is not taking adequate action does not justify parents acting like children and perpetuating the violence. If the school is not taking adequate action than you need to be persistent, involve other parents if necessary, complain to the Governors. There is a very clear procedure for dealing with complaints and grown-ups should follow this. If my child was in a school without an adequate anti-bullying policy and which didn't take persistent bullying seriously and I got no joy from complaining to the Governors then I wouldn't hesitate to take my child out of that school. I would not ever condone hitting back. Most of you regularly tell your children that 2 wrongs do not make a right and hitting is wrong. If you tell them something else you undermine this message and undermine the teachers and the school and confuse your child.

been there done that, took 2 years.

Any teacher and many parents will tell you that fighting back physically exacerbates the problem. A real bully is quite likely to rise to the challenge and if he feels threatened (which is unlikely since most bullies pick on those weaker than themselves) he will just come back with his mates or a weapon or try a different tactic. You have to break the cycle by refusing to play his game.

'If you tell them something else you undermine this message and undermine the teachers and the school and confuse your child. '

i'mnot for hitting back myself but when your child is hurt, scared etc the last worry- rightly is about undermining the school! sod the school- they shouldnt have let it happen in the first place (I know its not that easy but if its got to that level then something has broken down somewhere)! As a parent the concern is, very simply,protect my baby

and rightly so