to tell ds to hit this little boy back??

[Nemoandthefishes]

little boy in ds class has been badly bullying one of ds friends for the last couple of months. However today he decided to punch ds in the stomach and then told him not to tell, so ds didnt until he punched him in the stomach again at which point he told the teacher whose answer was 'oh just ignore him'. So I have told ds if the little boy punches him again to hit him back usually I wouldnt have said this but ds has already been through a bullying incident since sept and only just got it sorted about 2 weeks ago.

oh i saw the tacher. saw the head, they did nothing, just made excuses, so after that I (and his dad) sad hit them.
sadly he didn't do until he was 15.

And how, how, how is telling your child to hit back (which is going to turn a single hit into a full scale fight) in any way going to protect him?

What I mean by undermining the school is that any decent school has a blanket rule that hitting or any other form of violence is wrong. If you tell your child to hit back you undermine that message. It is not protecting your child it is making other children vulnerable by perpetuating violence and the sending out the message that violence is a valid way of dealing with conflict.

msshadow, in your situation I would do what I have said. Teacher, Head, Governors. If I really thought the school was not dealing with my concerns then I wouldn't want my child in that school anyway and I'd take them out. Just because a school may not handle an issue well does not mean you have to encourage your own child to misbehave!

I do get what you are saying, but sometimes it is the only way to deal with it. ds had one boy torment him, calling dd a spaz. he stopped when ds finally decked him.
it is easy as a teacher to talk about the procedure, but when you have a crying child that does not want to go to school, and whatever you try doesn't work, wtf can you do?
why should my childs education suffer because the school refuse to deal with the bullies.

ds is a college now. so this is all in the past. he learnt the best way was to have big mates!!

Yes 5candles,you just yell at me LOL, ignore the fact I have never advised that in my life

It can be done via teachers, you have to know how to play it though- lots of e-mails copied toeverybopdy high up,lots of meetings..... become more of a PITA than sorting it out would be. It's damned hard work though and having a dh with a sharp tongue probably helps with the LEA.

Don't get me wrong msshadow I think any sort of bullying and name calling and violence is wrong. I do not for a second think that any child or parent should put up with it. I just don't think that hitting back is ever the answer.

In the example you gave you talked about how a child was calling your dd 'a spaz'. Now you may see that your ds 'decking' him has resolved the problem but has the child's attitude changed as a result of your child's action? Is the school doing any more to promote positive attitudes towards disability?

And what will your son do if he takes that approach in later life? If he is bullied in the workplace for example?

In my college he would probably get immediately expelled.

And while occasionally I hear about these cases where X kid stood up to Y kid who was the school bully and Y kid automatically learned the error of his ways and stopped being a bully (especially in story books of a certain era) I've never actually seen this happen in 10+ years as a teacher.

What I have seen is X hits Y, Y hits X and there's a fight. Both x and y deny instigating the fight. Parents of each child back up their own child and so on.

I've also seen a case where Y started carrying a knife (for protection!!?) and got automatically exluded from school as a result.

And plenty of cases where when Y stands up to X, Y gets his mates on the case or waits till X gets off the bus and so on.

While a parent may be acting out of good if misguide intentions advising their child to hit back is very, very, rarely going to solve the problem of a bully and almost always exacerbate it.

And, as I say, in perpetuating violence it undermines the school (and probably your own message at home) in terms of how children should learn to manage conflcit.

Out of interest in one of your kids is bothering his sibling do you tell him to hit back?

Teachers undermine parents when they don't deal with bullying!

I was sent out of class for "crying" (I was being beaten up) and then the two boys were sent out to the toilet together. Do I need to finish this story? I was told not to hit back and that teacher undermined my parents. She wasn't a one off either.

Bufeo this is a good example of why you should start a new thread and not resurrect

A school's failure to handle bullying effectively has nothing to do with parents telling their child to fight back. They are two separate issues and shouldn't be connected.

If I'm not happy with something at my dcs school I follow procedures (like an adult); I do not tell my kids to misbehave.

Two wrongs do not make a right. If a child copies your child's work do you tell them to copy back? If someone bullies you in the workplace do you bully them back?

At what point do you think it is no longer acceptable to use violence to resolve a problem? When your child is 10? 16 (and criminally liable)? 24?

What happens if you tell your child to 'defend' himself and he ends up seriously injuring another child? Or the bully just moves on to another kid? Is that ok because it's not your kid?

Bollocks does it not have a link

Parents wouldnt feel boxed in if school could handle it

Me, I pulled son ut for a few days until sorted but not everyone has that as an option. Oh and not everyone is a stroppy bitch likie me, so might feel more petrified by events

5candles

yopu're qquoting me about failure to sort then asking when I owulsd stop using violence

I don't use violence neither do i tell my boys

I'd ahrdly say to them to hit each other 'Oi ds2 go smack the autistic kid' would I?

Strange

I would like to see how any adult would deal with being beaten up. Would you stand still and take it? Try to explain how violence isn't the answer? The law allows you to defend yourself using reasonable force and that is dependent on the situation.

Fivecandles, what would you expect a child to do who has been floored and being beaten by several children whilst the whole playground has come to a standstill to either watch or try and get their kick in?

As for taking it higher, our MP was Estelle Morris, how much higher could we have gone? Even she despaired at the school's attitude "Ring Estelle if you like, I don't care, this is my school" that wasn't in response to a threat either but we did take it as an invite. My head teacher went on the local news and spoke about their bullying policy, their bullying cameras (how many times was I beaten up under the ones nearest where they were being watched? ha)

It took me until I was 14 to hit back, my parents went to the school daily, they wrote letters, they spoke to parents, the police got involved. I was HE for awhile. Nothing changed the school's attitude, I was constantly treated like I was a naughty child because I told etc.

I don't think it should go straight to hitting back, but eventually when all other avenues have hit brick walls someone has to defend the child.

Of course schools should deal with bullying and violence (although it's pretty hard for them when parents don't support them and also when children don't let teachers know there's a problem).

But if they don't it still doesn't justify hitting back. 2 wrongs don't make a right.

As with any other issue with a school - there's a procedure which you can use. If you use or promote violence to solve your problems you're not much better than the child who uses violence in the first place (and often says he or she was provoked!).

Peachy, not addressing you. Am addressing the people who think it's ok to tell your kids to hit back.

'Fivecandles, what would you expect a child to do who has been floored and being beaten by several children whilst the whole playground has come to a standstill to either watch or try and get their kick in?'

In that case it is self defence, in which case we're on a different tack than just 'stand up for yourself and punch em' (my crap effort at a description not a quote of anyone!)

If someone is attacking you and the only way you can get them to stop is to hit them you have no choice

Being able to do just that stopped me being raped at a bus stop when I was 16;self defence is a very important skill IMO.

' would like to see how any adult would deal with being beaten up. Would you stand still and take it?'

Erm, the law. If adults hit each other it's a criminal offence. There is a consensus that it's wrong. We need to get this message across to children to. Hitting is wrong. Doesn't matter whether x gave y a funny look or called her a name. Doesn't matter whether he started it or she said and then I ....

You have no idea how long teachers spend dealing with these sorts of issues. I have rarely if ever seen the straightforward issues described in story books where there is a single unprovoked bully who just needs to be taught a lessons. It's more often a set of misunderstandings and provokations on both sides which escalate into violence (sometimes, sadly, encouraged by parents).

But, as I say, we're not talking about life and death situations here. We're talking about being hit in the playground. There is nothing to stop a child calling for help or walking away to get help.

'Fivecandles, what would you expect a child to do who has been floored and being beaten by several children whilst the whole playground has come to a standstill to either watch or try and get their kick in?'

Ridiculous. This should not happen where school playgrounds are properly supervised in the first place. But, where a child has been 'floored' and is being beaten by 'several children' I would imagine fighting back would not be much of an option anyway!!

Any sensible child would call for help and TBH at this point most of the teachers would be running to break the fight up.

I don't care how bad a school is. If you're living on an estate with lots of vandals and drug addicts you don't tell your kid to become one too! You follow the procedures and if they don't work you get your kid out of there. You don't encourage them to misbehave too. You teach them that there are other better ways to resolve conflict. Or you're no different from the child using violence in the first place (almost certainly to try mistakenly to resolve his own feelings of anger or frustration or perceived injustice or conflict).

"When you've stopped beating me up I'm going to call the police"

It's not ridiculous it happened. The whole playground (3 years, about 90 children a year) stopped to join in. No one knows where the teachers were at the time, apart from the one who reported it to the parents. She watched from the stairs window. She described it exactly the same as the child did. She had called the parents in, not to comfort the child but to tell them that their child had hit four people (she had been curled in a ball then kicked and hit her arms out in desperation getting the four children closest to her limbs).

I mean ridiculous to ask what you would expect a child to do in that situation given that you described the child as 'floored' and beaten up by several people. As Peachy says this example is nothing like what is raised by the OP.

IMO unprovoked hitting is wrong and is what I've told my son. Defending yourself is a different matter. Karate is indeed an excellent way to improve self-confidence and learn how to deflect a punch. Although I do wonder if some people might have a problem with the action involved in blocking, seeing it as a hit/punch and therefore unacceptable.
Bullies don't always have the grace and courtesy to stand back while their victim is delivering a lecture. Sometimes they aren't nice enough to wait while their victim runs off to tell a teacher.
I have always told my son that unprovoked hitting is wrong. And that a first option is to tell a teacher.
But he should hit back, if necessary.

Ridiculous.
yes it is
to have a child bullied and the school do nothing.

oh and this thread was started on jan 30th
I am sure the op, has dealt with it by now.

I was looking for the action - here it is!

I'm no good to anyone now, Farr to tipsy!! *That^ is a heads up!

Okay - just catching up with 2 candles - "Did nobody ever tell you that 2 wrongs don't make a right?" Not since school actually. And I am someone who 'turned teh other cheek' in school.

You knwo what - life is fucking hard- but it is obvioulsy too easy for some people who think it is *wise to teach your child not to defend themselves when they are being attacked. For those kids however, you are tying their hands behind their backs. I have never - and would never - prpmote violenve as a first^ resource. Learning to defend touself against obvious attackers is a basic skill in my book however. There is - and always will be - ahuge difference. And I speak as a UK liberal.

'As Peachy says this example is nothing like what is raised by the OP. '

OOOh NO! peachy did jnto say that!

Peachy said it wasnt quite the same,Peachy did not criticise her choice of example- she discussed!

peachy has had one person twist her wors this week ta,thats enough

Permisson to strike, m'lord?

Defending yourself using reasonable force is allowed in law, and is sensible. Trouble is, many of us can't do it. As I'm ASD, (autism spectrum), if there's any shouting or violence, my brain switches off ("goes into shutdown") with the overload from it, so I become instantly vulnerable. The rates of bullying for those with a disability are utterly shocking - upwards of 90% for some learning/autism disabilities. What it says about society I'm really not sure.

I share with all of you a tale of lad who tried bullying my ds, who's a school rugby player and 6ft+ and built like a brick outhouse. No, don't question the logic of trying to bully such a person. It must have made sense to the individual at the time...

So, he tried to use a bit of violence against ds. DS thought about it for a moment, lifted said individual off his feet, carried him to the school recyling rubbish bin, and casually and gently lowered him into it, uttering the firm word "No".

Point made. No violence at all.

In reality, not a practical prospect for most children, though. I'd say the school has a duty in law to act, and act fast. If they don't, the police could and should do so, especially if it is a vulnerable child with a disability (as this counts as a more serious crime).

Once again, Mito, I am in no way saying that people should not defend themselves or allow themselves to be victims. It is ludicrous to present my argument which is that hitting back is counterproductive and just perpetuates violence (as a means of dealing with conflict) as somehow just standing passively by.

There are other ways. If you were bullied in the workplace and you hit the bully you would rightfully be sacked. I thought we were in the business of teaching children right and wrong and preparing them to get on with others in society?

Teach them to hit and you are teaching them that violence resolves problems. It doesn't. It exacerbates them.

Really, it's not a diffficult argument. Please stop misinterpreting it.

Also, as we've already said self-defense to preserve your life is a very different sort of situation. And that, once again,is not what is being discussed here.