to tell ds to hit this little boy back??

[Nemoandthefishes]

little boy in ds class has been badly bullying one of ds friends for the last couple of months. However today he decided to punch ds in the stomach and then told him not to tell, so ds didnt until he punched him in the stomach again at which point he told the teacher whose answer was 'oh just ignore him'. So I have told ds if the little boy punches him again to hit him back usually I wouldnt have said this but ds has already been through a bullying incident since sept and only just got it sorted about 2 weeks ago.

BTW the only other time I've hit back was when I was mugged. I was 14 and this was a big black kid in his late teens, I wasn't put off I wasn't having it. The police didn't tell me off, in fact they called Mum and said "TBM's OK but the mugger was begging to be arrested!"

TinkerBellesMumandFiFi2 on Sun 01-Feb-09 22:55:11

"I think anyone who says to keep going to the teacher hasn't been there."

You clearly didn't bother to read my post where I explained that I was bullied for years, that when I hit back it had no impact because I wasn't strong enough, and that there was never any change because adults never thought to get involved.

Whereas when ds was bullied, the school intervened straigthaway and the problem was resolved instantly because the offender knew they would never get off his neck about it.

In primary school I would not expect playtime to be unsupervised: if there were no lunchtime supervisors I would take my child out of that school immediately.

"but most bullies can cope with the (excuse the pun) wrist slap that the teachers will give them for hitting. "

Are you sure this is how state schools are run these days? In our schools, at junior level it is lunchtime detention for hitting (and the other children will tell)

At secondary level it is expulsion. So yes, any bully that hits my dd might be able to cope- but she won't be coping in that school any more.

That's interesting. We were advised to scream "fire" - apparently that's most likely to get people's attention. But my course was held in Inner London, so lots of people likely to be around, so maybe a different scenario. When dh was mugged he was told next time to just hand over the phone, rather than resist and get beaten up. Phones are easier to replace than husbands/fathers.

I would completely agree with being mugged you give up the phone, well you are supposed to throw the phone or wallet away from you so you have a chance to run.
Our University was in Central Birmingham where I have seen people stand and watch somebody being beaten up, one person phoned the police on their mobile and got battered too.

Oh and I did smile at the at secondary level it's expulsion, like hell it is, the one time I ever got in an situation was with a girl 3 years older than me who knocked me out cold at lunchtime, I wanted to call the police was told no need the school would deal with it, her parents appealed on the basis they were getting divorced and she never served her suspension, there was no question of expulsion at all.

If it happened to my ds and the teacher didn't deal with it then I'd see the head, governors, LEA etc. What difference is there between a child who hits first and one who hits second? None imo. It will also give your ds the message that hitting is a way of getting what you want - in this case getting the other boy to stop hitting but in future there may be other reasons your ds finds for hitting to get what he wants. What would you do then?

When mychild was bullied endlessly at infants and junior school and it was clear the school was unable to deal with it effectively ( they tried), we called the police in. As they told us, if what was happening to my DC had happened to an adult in the street it would be classed as assault and in their opinion, just because it was in school it was no different. The kid concerned never so much as breathed on my child again.

sayithowitis - that is really interesting to me. I've always wondered why the police aren't brought into these situations more often because it is possible that some bullying could be classed as 'common assault' if the perpetrator is over 10. There is no reason in law (as far as I am aware) that negates the charge just because it happens in a school.

I was bullied at school, told my Mum, told teachers, the kids involved were spoken to and yet they still carried on picking on me, just got sneakier about it.

Sometimes, having exhausted all reasonable courses of action all thats left is to hit them back, it is the only way to get through to them.

I do think we ought to be careful about using our own experience as children when deciding how out children should behave in this sort of situation. I know it's not always the case, but schools are usually SO much better than they used to be - if only because they have to be. There are always structures in place - it may sometimes be difficult to get the school to act on it, but there will be a policy. If you have no joy with the teacher then go to the Head and the Chair of Governors. And insist.

It really is up to the parent to deal with bullying - certainly in a primary school. It is not a good idea to give children the idea that it is their responsibility to look after themselves. Apart from anything else, it's a very short step from "I have to sort this out for myself" to "This must be my fault"

I was bullied at secondary school - name calling and being tripped up, poked in the back with a stick etc. The teacher joined in on one occasion. I ignored it, and then one day I snapped. I pushed the perpetrator down the stairs, jumped on him and kicked him in the nuts. I had to be pulled off. I said to the teacher there, I'm going home, if you want to speak to me, that's where I'll be. I have no plans on coming back to school - you and everyone else know why this has happened. The head rang me at home to apologise, and he was suspended for the rest of term. When he came back, neither he nor his runty little friends came near me again.

Have I ever hit or attacked anyone since? No. And had it been dealt with by the teachers at the time, it wouldn't have come to this.

I don't agree with the Christian concept of turning the other cheek. You do need to stand up to bullies - it is the only thing that works if those in authority can't or won't deal with it.

But we're talking about a 5 year old here. Ans about "now" not 'then". Things are (usually) different now.

And I have never said anything about turning the other cheek. I have said that bullying needs to be dealt with - just not by hitting. Particularly if you are 5.

Hi Nemo, sounds like you have a lot on your plate, sounds very stressful.

I would say as these are five year olds we're talking about, you can win this as he's not yet at the age where he'll have some big "gang" as back up to punish your son for telling etc..

My mum always had a particular approach to this sort of thing, it happened a couple of times and worked for both...
My mum would approach the other mother, explain there is a problem, but that she would like to solve it amicably. She'd then invite the other kid over for tea/play (to my horror) and say the other mum was more than welcome too, as she may not be ikely to trust the set-up in the circumstances.
Both times the other mothers were more than happy to let my mum handle it, and we became friends afterwards.

I understand it's the last thing you want to do, but my mum admits nowadays although she wanted to "throttle the little bastards" - that she believes in keeping your enemies close and it certainly worked for us. One of the girls is now my best friend of 30 years.

Good luck anyway.

DS1 starts school in Sep so I have no experience of this, but I'm terririfed it will happen. Cos I know I'm naive to think it's never going to happen in school.

Have you written to the school? make sure the head knows. Demand a meeting the next day. I would expect a meeting with both sets of parents, the kids, the teacher, head of year and the headteacher. At this meeting I would expect the bullying kid to be spoken to pretty sharply. I would expect that the teachers/head would speak to the parents/bully privately (without you there) and emphasise that violence (smacking) in the home is unforgiveable.

I would expect the head to speak to the class to emphasise the importance of speaking up about bullying. Ditto a school assembly.

I would also expect the teacher to undergo an in-house insopection for a day to see if there is anything amiss in her handling of discilpine.

Yeah, I would expect a huge fuss to be made for every bullying incident.

You know what will happen if your son hits the other kid - he will get seen by the headmaster and hauled over the coals.

I tell my son the 'you never raise your hand to anyone and no-one should ever raise their hand to you'. He gets increadibly indignent if someone hits someone else and gives them a big telling off. If someone tries it on with him he yells 'NO!!! - YOU - DO - NOT - HIT - EVER!!!!'. He is so confident that it works.

He is also going to judo classes...

Highlander I'm afraid you have no chance, the schools usual reaction is to deny everything and close ranks.
As for schools have got better, I have seen no evidence of this whatsoever.
It is a case of the squeeky wheel gets the oil though and refuse to be fobbed off.

Now this happened to ds when he was at pre-school (aged 4). 2 other boys, one of whom had previously been his friend, ganged up on him and repeatedly pushed and hit him. We told pre-school this endlessly and sat through many meetings. Ultimately they were unable to solve it. Ds begged us not to remove him as he had other friends there he did not want to lose.

In the end, we told him quite clearly that if someone hit him once, he told the teacher. If someone smaller than him hit him lots of times, he told them to stop and told the teacher. If several people or someone bigger than him hit him more than once, he could do whatever he needed to to make them stop and we would support him.

This is exactly what he did the next time they hit him. We were called in by the nursery to say that ds was now hitting the other boys and what were we going to do about it. We explained that he had done what he had been told and we intended to do nothing - except ensure that he had not gone too far.

The bullying stopped.

Were we wrong? I have thought about this a lot and I don't think so. It is right that a child should know to tell adults and to let them sort it out, but sometimes adults cannot and in such circumstances I am not prepared to let my child continue to be hurt. I do not think that this has truned him into an agressive monster who believes that violence is OK but he does understand that sometimes it is OK to defend himself.

You need to bullyproof your kids.Hitting back will make bully think twice next time.
(I wouldn't recommend it at secondary -better then to go down the 'tell a teacher route'

Had bullying incident with 6yo ds. Been going on for nearly a year, not majorly physical but repeated shoving, agressive behaviour, ruining activities with friends etc. Anyway told teacher and head about it but nothing really happened then one lunchtime he had to be taken out for crying so much and he told his teacher everything. They confronted the boy and eventually he confessed but without much (any) remorse. I called the mother about it and she was very amicable about it all and agreed that we should get them together to play after a few weeks. Has anyone done this with their children? IMO he is very arrogant and really get kicks out of agressive and nasty behaviour (to other children too). Also complicating things is fact mum is mega famous and has paraded him out plenty in glossy mags. Is getting them together a good idea?

Telling your child to hit back is one of the most idiotic and unhelpful things you can do. As it validates hitting as a way of handling conflict it is totally counter productive.

yes much better to let the other kid keep hitting your child

YANBU

I had a similar experience to Duchess. At school I was bullied by a girl & her mates. She kept calling me paki,pushing me roughly when she would go past me & talk about me behind my back but making sure I could hear. One day, we were at the top of a flight of stairs and she started on me with the name calling. I don't know why I just saw red and shoved her down the stairs . I didn't think about what could've happened I just wanted her away from me. Anyway, we ended up in a tussle with a lot of hair pulling & got caught by the head of year. We both ended up in detention (!) but she NEVER did it again & in fact wanted to be my friend. So, I agree with you OP and think that in certain circumstances it's ok to retaliate. We have told our ds that if he gets continuously physically bullied it's ok to retaliate but he knows he would be in big trouble if he ever instigated something himself.

I'd also like to know how many of the posters who DON'T agree with the OP have actually been bullied themselves?

when my son was in Y7 he was being bullied by another boy. i told him that, if he ever felt like it, he could "stick" one on this boy if he tried it on again and i would stand by him if he was reported. a few weeks later, he came home glowing and told me he had punched his tormentor in the car park during lunch break. the bully did not report him and, strangely, 3 years on they are now in the same group of friends. bullying is the absolute pits, it's one of the few things in parenting that makes me cry.

Tell the teacher.

But I also think it is a mistake to tell people not to defend themselves if they are attacked. There won't always be teachers there to tell, and if a bully knows you won't stand for it they won't do it.