to think that picking a child up when a dog walks past is only going to reinforce that child's fear of dogs?

[wannaBe]

On way home from school this morning a woman and her child were coming towards me. As soon as the child saw the dog she started to wimper, she didn't scream, or become histerical, she opened her mouth and said she didn't want to pass the dog. Her mother picked her up, and proceeded to carry her, by now perfectly happy, until we passed, at which point she put her down again.

Now, I realize that some children are afraid of dogs for whatever reason. But the reality is that dogs are a part of life, and pandering too that fear to the enxtent that the child doesn't have to walk past the dog is surely not going to help? And is only going to reinforce the child's belief that all dogs are scary and to be feared.

If it was a bounding, snrrling, barking boisteress dog I could perhaps understand it, but it wasn't.

Yeah snoopy is bloody terrifying

oh yes, agree, wannabe.

WannaBe

Sorry I have left reply to this a bit late; I was travelling home from work. With regard to your point about the classroom situation, some children will be a bit wary of an unknown dog and will get over that by a calm approach as you have said. The situation is different if a child has a phobia or a lot of anxiety about dogs. Anxiety disorders are recognised impairments, and so the school should do everything they can to meet the needs of that child. The child should not be expected to sit with your dog, but neither should you and/or the dog be asked to leave the school! Schools will be able to manage a situation where there are two or more people with conflicting needs.

I don't think other children should miss out because one child has anxiety about dogs, but I think the child should think carefully about how to manage the situation to be inclusive to that child.

You do not know the history of a random frightened child; you are not their carer, nor are you are a clinical psychologist or an academic specialising in anxiety, and neither am I. It is not up to either of us to say why a child is anxious, to blame a parent or dog owner, or to say what the best course of action is. To describe a parent as 'pandering' or to say that the other children shouldn't miss out because of 1 child's needs is discriminatory and does nothing for social exclusion.

You don't know what any random child's problem is, or why they have it, or how severe it is, and really it is not your business.

I've only read a bit of your thread but what I saw sums up to me what an anti-dog society this has become. I own a very friendly retired greyhound who is very good with children. I have never experienced any fear from parents or children and used to bring him on the school run giving us all some exercise. The children outside school used to make a fuss of him, even some of the staff would come out to see him. One special needs helper used to bring some of the wheelchair bound children out to stroke him. Then, because he would bark whilst tied up so I could take my DD in (out of the way of everyone) the head told me I could no longer bring him incase any of the children were frightened. I argued that we should not pander to fears like that and my dog was the perfect dog for any child to get over their fear with a gentle positive experience. I lost my argument even though it turned out that nobody had complained. He also wasn't particularly interested when I mentioned that my 4 year old walked 3 miles a day on school runs (a good way to beat childhood obesity) and that because I wouldn't be able to leave my dog at home ( he would be distressed at being left) I would have to drive to school with him in the car- not very environmentally friendly. Also, there were other barking dogs there but only mine was a problem because he was big How's that for predjudice!!! I also continuously get remarks like "I hope you are going to clean up after that thing!" ( I am very responsible and always clean up after my dog.) So I have decided that Gordon Brown will probably ban dogs on health and safety grounds in our country gone mad!

I think some people are taking this completely the wrong way. It's perfectly reasonable for someone to pick up their child around a dog if, a) they don't know the dog, and b) their child is a bit wary of dogs.

No we shouldn't be 'encouraging their fear' by doing this, but dogs can be scary for some children. Especially big dogs, or strange ones they don't. Think about how small children are. They're eye level or smaller than alot of dogs, and it can be intimidating. Especially if a child is quite shy anyway.

Just because some people might porotect their children from things they might find a bit intimidating, it doesn't mean they have a problem with your particular dog or others.

My son loves his uncle's dog and his Nans dog, but other bigger dogs he doesn't know he can be funny around. Even though I love dogs myself I still wouldn't trust 100% ANY dog around children. After all they all have animal instincts and if pushed, poked, or prodded they COULD do something they too would regret. I'm not saying they would, but people should understand this.

that woman could be me, i always pick up my child if i saw dog. does not matter dog is in lead or not, as some dog with lead will still reach us. i never had dog in my life although pil,sil, niece all had dog. the whole dog and baby stuff scares me, if anything happen and dog suddenly shatch my child i will never forgive myself, and will regret not been protective enough.
i understand dog owners point, but as stanger i would not know your dog. we heard to many lately, dont we? im sure many mother like me do the same thing. you cant criticize people by this.

"I've only read a bit of your thread but what I saw sums up to me what an anti-dog society this has become."

That is not my first thought when we have to play in the fenced-in playground in our local park because the grass is generally so full of dog-poo its impossible with little ones falling over all the time. All my children are terrified of dogs. Not because of me and DH (DH loved dogs and I am not particularly terrified), but because they have been scared by dogs coming up to them in parks and often jumped on. Unfortunately that ruins things for the responsible dog-owners out there.

My oldest son did not use to be afraid of dogs. He used to love his grand aunts Jack russel, he was excited about him, would cuddle him and feed him treats.

Then we went to stay with my inlaws for a week. They had a dog. A mixed breed: German Sheppard and Siberian Husky. It had one blue eye and one brown eye, looked fierce, and had a fierce temper. My son was just 2 and the dog bigger than him. The dog would snarl at him. Exposing all his teeth and let out a long low drawl. Sometimes he would just walk next to my son, and slowly push him over by leaning his weight on him. I never left the two alone, but I didnt want to be hysterical, and I did not want my son do develop dog phobia by letting him think he was in danger. On one such occasion I sensed what was about to happen just before it did and managed to swiftly pick the boy up before the dogs jaws snapped, and he only manage to bite his elbow (rather than a chunk of the entire arm.

Since then my son was terrified of dogs. He wont go near them. Not even a puppy. I am trying to not force the issue with him. If he comes running home because he cant bring himself to pass his friends Rotweiler (which is not just a little boisterous I tell you) even if the dog cant reach him, I get dressed, and go out, and walk him past the dog.

It is not pandering to a hysterical child. The damage has been done, and will most likely be with my ds throughouot his life.

We did make some progress when our old neighbour in London got a puppy, but as the puppy grew into another dog bigger than him, he withdrew.

It is a complex issue.

I understand your question, Wannabee, as a dog lover, and as somebody who knows your dog, you probably would like to know how people like me help our children overcome this fear. But sometimes, you really dont know what else to do than to help your child past the dog without making an issue of it.

Apologies Riven for my poor use of english terminology when I rant I can be insensitive and thoughtless just as some people can use sarcasm and miss the point of the discussion. I don't pander to my dog.. having just spent many thousands of pounds doing up my house I did not want my sensitive dog ( as a result of his life prior to living with me- did I mention he was rescued?) wrecking it. I have over the course of several weeks trained him out of any separation anxiety and he can now be left alone, these things do not happen overnight. And your point about pandering to children, no, not if it leaves them with an irrational fear for life which they will pass on to their own children.

wow, qs - that's serious canine bullying - very nasty indeed, and the pushing over bit is really creepy. no wonder your son has a phobia
however, this is (thankfully) very unusual. in response to your question (addressed to wannabe), one thing i've said to a few parents of scared children is to bypass the fear and talk about the breed/job/colour of the dog
"Mummy, there's a dog, I'm scared"
"Oh yes, look, it's a springer...they help the police......." "it's a labrador, they can help blind people go shopping...."
even if it's just a grotty old heinz 57, there's something you can pick up on and make into an interesting feature
i'm not a dog expert, or behavioural expert or owt, but a couple of mums have come back to me and said this helps a bit, and anything's better than the "it won't hurt you" thing
i really feel for your ds, as he was on the receiving end of - i dunno if you can really ascribe this to a dog - abuse, and i just hope he can get past it

I understand your point op. Walking my little Jack Russell once a toddler came running over to him and started to play with him, the child's mum became panic stricken, grabbed her lo -screaming "its gonna bite you"... I know what scared the child most!

If all dog owners were sensible and walked their dogs sensibly, cleaned up their mess etc, those of us on the anti/scared of dog side might take a more tolerant approach. However, having to shriek 'mind the poo' endlessly on the walk to school and having had a mad woman allow her dog to leap into the car (complete with strapped in, terrified baby and children, then swear at me when I asked her to get it out) I am firmly on the side of picking up your scared child. I think that people may be missing the point that we don't all have to love/ enjoy dogs just because some people have them.