to think that picking a child up when a dog walks past is only going to reinforce that child's fear of dogs?

[wannaBe]

On way home from school this morning a woman and her child were coming towards me. As soon as the child saw the dog she started to wimper, she didn't scream, or become histerical, she opened her mouth and said she didn't want to pass the dog. Her mother picked her up, and proceeded to carry her, by now perfectly happy, until we passed, at which point she put her down again.

Now, I realize that some children are afraid of dogs for whatever reason. But the reality is that dogs are a part of life, and pandering too that fear to the enxtent that the child doesn't have to walk past the dog is surely not going to help? And is only going to reinforce the child's belief that all dogs are scary and to be feared.

If it was a bounding, snrrling, barking boisteress dog I could perhaps understand it, but it wasn't.

Its like everything isnt it. Kids need to be comfortable around other adults, in cars etc but a little bit of wariness around strangers and traffic is not such a bad thing.

same with animals. I've had dogs, I love dogs, I play with friend's well disciplined dogs, but am a little scared of random dogs that I pass out and about. I dont trust ALL dogs

SBS

I don't have a dog at the moment, but when I do have one, I wouldn't put it on lead if someone was passing me, unless I was on a narrow pavement or there was a scared child or some other obvious cause.

The point of a lead is to stop dogs running on the road, worrying sheep or disturbing ground nesting birds at a particular time of year. A dog that snaps should be muzzled, but a dog with no history of biting is allowed to roam free in most green spaces as long as there are no livestock/nesting birds.

There is no law, or I would think even a general consensus, that dogs should be kept at a distance from other people.

OI - I have no idea but out of three children my youngest (just over 2) gets bloody hysterical when he sees a dog. No bad vibes from DH, I or his sisters - we all like dogs. No bad experience nothing to explain his utter terror. He will scale my leg to get away from any dog he sees. I really have no idea where this came from.

Ds1's phobia of dogs started when he was sitting quietly in his pushchair and a dog on an extendable lead suddenly leapt up on to him and put its face right next to ds1's. If anything he became more frightened of dogs on leads than those off them.

It took a couple of years before he was able to reach the point where he is today. He's now able to walk past dogs but he still might change sides and walk so that I am between him and the dog.

To get to that point we first had to keep dogs firmly in the distance for a long time, including crossing the road where necessary. The next stage was the one described in the OP. Ds1 would then tolerate being closer to dogs as long as he was held. Eventually he stopped asking to be held and was able to cope with walking by them.

When adults have a real fear of something we don't expect them to confront the thing they are afraid of every day. We don't tell emetophobes to stop being so silly and go and sit near people being sick because 'you'll have to get used to it'. We even refer to spiders in MN thread titles as "loofahs" so that the arachnophobes don't become distressed. So why is there the big rush to make children face up to things they are afraid of? Why aren't they allowed to take small steps to reach that goal?

dd1 is autistic, so understanding her reasoning is not always easy

but yes, it is a total pita.

At one point we couldn't take our dog for walks if dd1 was there too, even if she was in her buggy (and our dog is very well trained, and wouldn't even look at dd1 if we told her not too)

But, we might get there eventually.

What really annoyed me was the owner of the dogs I mentioned earlier - the dogs ran up, barking loads, couldn't blame dd1 for being scared even without her phobia. So I picked her up, the dogs jumped up, still barking, dd1 freaked out, as couldn't get out of their way (she is a tall 4.5) and the owner came up, ignored obviously panicking child and said "oh, don't worry, they're friendly" and, didn't call them away

Honestly, it set us back about 6 months in dd1 rehabilitation programme...

SBS

Totally agree with your post 12:56.

the guide dog would be unlikely to be distracted by a child having a tantrum/crying/screaming for whatever reason, although I guess people who have no experience wouldn't know that.

Orm I've often wondered that, and tbh I think that there are often two seenarios.

Often when I've come across kids who are afraid of dogs (and I came across a few when we were going to toddler groups/the park etc on a regular basis), a lot of them had often had a puppy jump up at them, and more often than not it was granny/auntie/someone in the family's puppy that was only jumping up to play, but because the child is small they can get a fright.

The other senario though, and I know I am likely to get shot down for this, but I think that a lot of it is a transferrence of fear from the parents.

You only have to look at the amount of posts on here from people that say they would never let their child play with a friend who had a dog/wouldn't employ a childminder who had a dog/wouldn't even visit the inlaws because of the dog/that all dogs are dangerous animals who will jump on and devour your child with no notice, to see that people do have a huge amount of paranoya about dogs. And IMO a lot of that is transferred subconsciously to their children.

Obviously any animal can be unpredictable, but there seems to be no middle ground between those that humanize their animals and those that think that all dogs are evil and should be avoided because not doing so would almost certainly result in serious injury to their child.

Milly I have noticed that 90% of the time when I pass a dog on a lead, and I VISIBLY move to either the inside of outside of the pavement till I have no-where else to go to avoid the dog, owners still allow the dogs enough slack to jump up on me - are you really saying that I am the unreasonable one?

I think lots of people are in the middle ground.

I like dogs; I was brought up with dogs.

It is a fact that some dogs are dangerous, and that most really bad dog attacks happen to children not adults, and that some dog owners are irresponsible.

I bring my children up to know that you do NOT approach a dog you do not know, and you certainly do not stroke a dog you do not know.

I don't think it does matter if a child is scared of dogs. The parent handled it well I think. My daughter is scared of witches and bald people. So what? We are all scared of something. I know a woman who has a phobia of children.

YABU - what would you rather she did? Shove the kid in the dogs face and scream "FEEL THE FEAR"

YABU My neice as are my children very wary of dogs and if my children asked me to pick them up because of this fear I would do so.

It doesnt help when dog owners let the lead really far out and think its ok to let their dog go right up to a small child thinking they are 'helping' the child get over their fears.
Young children dont distinguish between guard dogs and guide dogs, dogs are dogs.

My neice (3) who I mentioned earlier is petrified of cats also, (no reason she just is and we are working on that to eliminate her fears) but it doesnt mean we would let one go right up to her to prove its harmless. that's would be plain cruel and unhelpful.

WannaBe there is lots of people who are on the middleground

Lots of people dont mind dogs they "know" but are still unhappy if random strangers let their dogs bound up to them or their children.

A dog owner (with dog) was allowed on the bus the other day and was letting it walk up to seated passengers. That would upset and usettle me. But I will go up to a placid dog with a decent owner and play with it.

People like me like to feel that they have the option of approaching a dog OR NOT. A dog being forced on my makes me nervous

Ds2 has been terrified of dogs and cats. He doesn't quite leap into my arms when they pass like he used to but he visibly stiffens.

It's really odd because dd and ds1 have always loved them. We don't have animals because I am allergic but we see my mum's and friends pets all the time.

Some people have said I must have transferred fear or avoidance or something to him as I am allergic, but I was when the others were small too and I can't think how I've behaved any differently.

I don't think you're unreasonable SBS; I think the OP is unreasonable. I think a dog should be kept on a short lead on a pavement and kept out of other people's way. I think I misunderstood your earlier post, and thought you were saying dogs shouldn't be off leads when there are other people about, such as in a wood.

I agree wannebe. I find the ones who are the most scared at the ones whose parents start screaming and getting slightly hysterical.

I have two large dogs and my dc (when it hatches) will obviously have plenty of practise at living with dogs but walking past a strange one when it's head will be at dc's head height? I really don't know. I think I would just pick it up and carry it past or get between it and the dog. I wouldn't make a fuss or anything, I'd just unobtrusively intervene as I have seen a fair few atrociously behaved dogs and when a child is quite small there is too much scope for a lot of damage in a very little time. I won't encourage fears (and a lot of children don't like dogs because their parents don't. Even if the parent doesn't say anything their body language gives it away) but something like that isn't worth the risk and you don't have to encourage/pander to a fear (if one exists) to just calmly remove the danger.

Of course there is a middle ground wannabe. When she was about 12 my DD was attacked by a 'safe' family dog belonging to one of her school friends: it bit a chunk out of her top lip and she was hospitalized and permanently scarred as a result. Yet she is not afraid of dogs.

YABU.

As others have said you have no idea of the history of the child and it sounds as though her mother dealt with it with very little fuss.

"Also, dogs can be very unpredictable around small children. You can have and "know" your dog for years and think it is placid but it could still turn on
a child at any time." That's simply not true though. Dogs suddenly turning and attacking children with no provokation is extremely rare. The dog attacks that have been in the media over the past few years have been dogs who were known to be agressive, guard dogs/dogs that were habitually kept outside and had no experience of children.

I would say that 99% of dog attacks are the fault of either the owner, who keeps an agressive dog and does not take that into account when going out into places where people might be who can be bitten, or the child who has agrovated the dog and caused it to snap, which is the only way it can tell the child to stop, which actually translates into it being the fault of the parent for allowing the child to pull/poke/prod the dog in the first place.

But this notion that any dog can turn at any time and attack anyone without any kind of warning is just not true.

I have a brother who was terrified of dogs as a child. He'd had no bad experiences with dogs. The rest of us all loved dogs and used to pester our neighbour to let us take their dog out for walks etc. My mother also liked dogs and later had a dog herself.

Sometimes a child is just scared of dogs.

Oh ok, I dont mind that too much milly - I dont mind when people let their dogs go for a good fast run on the beach - those dogs are enjoying the wind rushing past far to much to bother me walking a distance away.

Its the people who have their dogs on leads in town but dont use them when the dog approaches a clearly uninterested / unimpressed person

I would be extra extra cautious of dogs if I'm out with small children. I had the most pleasant gentle dog for years and years (she never even barked) who snapped at a child one day (and yes we had her put down after that). I think that dogs dont see children as little people, they sometimes see them as something different IYKWIM?

Of my 4 kids only no.3 has been scared of dogs. He was jumped at by a large dog and when I shouted at the owner to control it she rolled her eyes and explained he was excited because he had just got out of the car as if that makes it ok. I could have thumped her (not a very me thing to do). He isnt keen on them now but isnt scared.

I am also not keen, I wasnt at all bothered until a large german shepherd tried to take a lump out of me when I was about 8. It managed to get my t shirt but thank god I moved fast enough and it didnt get me. It was being walked by someone we kind of knew who was 14ish and weighed nothing, certainly less than the dog and she couldnt hold it back well enough. I cant belive her parents used to let her walk it, it was well known for being grumpy.

My mum is scared to death of dogs. But as I said it was only when one went for my I developed a fear.

So ime its more the people who are not responsible owners casuing the fears. But as a responsible dog owner I would expect you to be more angry about that than me!

My 2 yr old is afraid of dogs, partly becuase my feckless neighbours have 2 idiots dogs that bark and jump up on the fence every time we go into the backyard, they are quite vicious, now i, as an adult, know that not all dogs are like this, but how do you expalin that to a 2 year old?

And would i pick him up if we walked past a guide dog and he got scared, too right i would, unless the owner was friendly enough to stop and try and show him that the dog is not scary, then i would encourage him down and try to show him the dog is nice, otherwise i would pick him up and walk past

Children grow out of these fears as they get older and start to understand that not all dogs bark and bite

I would not want my kids to have contact with dogs I don't know and I would most definitely pick up my child if he asked me to!
As mentioned above several times, dogs, even the sweetest pooches that are adored by their owners, can be unpredictable and often get aggressive towards small children.
I was attacked by a boxer when I was 12 years old, a prize winning pure blood, owned by a friend of my parents. I still hate and am absolutely terrified by large dogs. I cross the road if I see one coming.
On the other hand, Dad has always kept dogs for hunting, strangely I have no problem with them as firstly, they are smallish and secondly, I don't see them that often.