to not be insistant that the sexes are equal?

[elmoandella]

why do we have to be equal in all aspect of life??

we are not the same.

women are better at some of life's tasks. men are better at others.

obviously there are exceptions to this.(women with high levels of testerone for eg. tend to have a more "male" attitude and way of doing things)

i was raised by a liberal mother who did everything for herself. raised 5 kids while running a business. with no childcare and as a single parent for the most of that time we were growing up.

i was encouraged to do follow lead and be successful.

however, it seemed a very unhappy life.

i have to ponder the idea that perhaps she would have had a much more satisfactory life if she hadn't been so determined to be equal and get her own way.

is it really so terrible to just accept women may sometimes, in certain fields of work, get paid less.

I also dont see why so many women strive to equal there partner in pay.

what is wrong with your other half being the greater earner. it is half the battle then when you go for maternity leave. you will be able to relax a little and enjoy it. than worrying that the main salary is cut drastically as the female is the higher earner.

i know a few on here will want to flame me. but i would actually like to see a reasonable debate on why so many women are so determined to do everything.

tell me why you want equality so badly.

convert me!!

I totally agree...but many won't. Do you want me to post you my flame redtardant clothing.

i don't think many women are determined to do everything?

i'm not.

people who are in the same job should be paid equally.

but your right, there are some area's where there is a clear difference between the sexes. i have never understood why some women are so desperate to be considred a man in a dress.

I am not the most feminine of women and have a very male attitude to most things but i am essentially a woman and prefer to be treated as one.
As for how much someone earns though, do you think we should only marry men who earn more than us so that we can go on maternity leave?

you made sense till that last bit

Message withdrawn

yes, it is terrible that for doing exactly the same work, women get paid less

Lets have this debate after 2050 when they predict that it will be equal pay for equal work

Obviously some of them aren't as good as men at things like spelling and grammar but that's just an issue over female education. Better education for women is the key.

I earned 10x my children's father and was "better" at many things. People just differ whatever their sex.

Also men and women are very different in lots of ways - lots of interesting books on the female brain. What we need to avoid is a return to the days int he UK of the 1800s when most people thought women's brains meant they couldn't for example become doctors, only nurses. That was a load of rubbish. You stlil get some stupid women today who think men can't change nappies but then it;'s usually because they have so little in their lives and are so very incompetent at other things they have to preserve some little area of servile domestic chores where they can have a sense of power. If they were properly educated they would realise in areas like that men and women are perfectly capable.

I think you lack an understanding of what equality is. famously summed up in an International Court of Justice case by Judge Tanaka, respecting the principle that people - whether black, white, male, female, able-bodied, disabled, old or young - are equal does not mean thinking that they are the same. In fact in order to treat people equally you have to acknowledge their differences. equality is about considering we are all equal in dignity, in rights, in worth, as human beings.

You're first mistake is in presuming that because you are happier living your life in a particular way then all women would secretly be happier that way too.

I'm a SAHM but if/when I go back out to work then I don't see why not possessing a penis should mean I should receive less money for doing exactly the same job.

To follow your train of thought through to its logical end, should women who do what are viewed as traditionally female jobs be paid more than the men who do those jobs because, according to you, women are presumably better at them? No?

I agree completely with mamazon

i dont want to go back in time.

i think i find it quite a reasonable balance at the moment.

why cant it be allowed to continue as it is??

what next once we're equal.

will women try and gain a higher wage as they are the ones who are able to carry a baby?? will they begin arguing we are the ones capable of continuing the human race and therefore should be paid more.

indeed hatwomen

OP,in what fields do you think it acceptable foor men to be paid more than women? Why?

women aren't the ones who continue the human race. unless i missed a vital part of sex ed, im pretty sure we don't produce sperm

i'm asking about equality in general. not just in wages.

I really should not answer this or any other MN thread or I am going to end up as a SAHM as the report I am writing will not be ready for work on Monday.

You raise a lot of different issues...

I don't really think about it as equality. I think about what I want out of life. I am not interested in earning more/less that my husband, doing more/less housework or having a better/worse job than him. Comparisons can be the death of a relationship.

My husband does get paid more than me, but he has a job he doesn't like, while I love mine. Hence he will take early retirement while I will work for as long as I can. We want different things. But I do earn enough that if he left me tomorrow I could support myself and my children.

I want freedom of choice, not equality of outcome. I want to be able to do the job I want to do, and for people to think that I am just as capable of doing that job as anyone without caring responsibilities is. I have friends who earn more than their husbands and are happy and friends who stay at home and are happy.

Women need to be allowed to have choices and girls need to be educated so that they can have a capacity to understand those choices and do what is best for them. I am worried about the backlash, which does exist and is damaging girls' sexualities.

The problem with men having a lot more money is that many women may not enjoy being at home/on maternity leave when a man abuses his control over money and says I'm not paying for food/clothes/a pushchair/your busfare/petrol/heating as I'm out at work all day. That is the reality of some women's lives. There will always be men who will abuse power if given it.

Echo hatwoman

I also have no idea why you would be happy to be paid less to do your job, than your male colleague would be paid. Tell me why you want that type of inequality so badly. I'll try and understand.

this has always been a pet peeve of mine too as it doesn't take a genious to work out that men and women are drastically differant creatures both mentally and physically.....therefore it is impossible for us to be equal at all things.

women will always excell in certain areas while men will excell in others.

women are simply better designed for certain things and vice versa, it's not chauvanism to say so, it's simple biology.

men were desogned by millions of years of evolution to be the providers of food while women were designed to be the nurterers.... 40 years of feminism isn't going to cancel out those millions of years of evolution overnight.

while it's great that women have the opportunity to do whatever they choose career wise these days, and similarly it's great that those men inclined to do so can be stay at home dads, it doesn't mean women sould feel so bloody obligated to outdo men career wise, as if to not be top of your field carreer wise is somehow an insult to all feminism has done.

feminism was all about a women's right to vote, her right to work beyond marriage and her right to be treated as an equal as opposed to a second classs citizan..... it should not be taken as an obigation by every woman to be a career driven supewoman at the expense of every thing else in her life.

it doesn't mean you've failed feminism if you're happier being a mother than a CEO, it doesn't mean you're weak of you feel more comfortable at mother and toddler meets than board meetings.... it just means that biologically speaking you're doing what you were designed to do, and there is nothing wrong with being happy eith this, just as there's nothing wrong if a woman finds motherhood doesn't suit her and longs for the excitement of work 2 weeks into maternity leave..... feminism gave us the right to make that individual decision.... just as conversely it allowed a man to say 'actually, i quite fancy staying home with the kids for a few years instead of slaving away in the city'

the only people i feel sad for are those who feel obligated to make a decision that's not right for them, but if the choices are freely made than i don't think it's anyones business who fulfills what role within a family environment.

"is it really so terrible to just accept women may sometimes, in certain fields of work, get paid less"

yes. When would it ever be ok to pay a woman less than a man doing the same job?

sorry for the bad spelling

This thread is a joke, right?

I mean, you're happier to be paid less than a man? You're happier being told that you ought to be a nurturer and provider? You're happier feeling you should take a feminine pace or two behind the blokes on the career ladder?

I don't think we are "equal" in all ways = speaking as a whole i.e. ALL people are different. They have different temperaments, different skills etc. It's not just a thing about men and women.

I do think opportunities should be the same for all though. (obviously up to the individual as to whether these are taken up though).

I know that here in Belgium, salaries are agreed by the unions. The range is based on the industry, the job level, your qualifications, and the amount of experience you have. Pay rises are usually index linked, with room for manouevre based on your performance. Sex doesn't enter in to it. I have no clue how much my colleagues earn though and have no way of checking that this is fairly applied in reality.

Also, both parents are entitled to take 3 months parental leave for each child, before their 6th birthday. This can be all at once, month here/month later, or in the form of part time work. The employer has some flexibility as to when it is taken, but cannot refuse.