to not be insistant that the sexes are equal?

[elmoandella]

why do we have to be equal in all aspect of life??

we are not the same.

women are better at some of life's tasks. men are better at others.

obviously there are exceptions to this.(women with high levels of testerone for eg. tend to have a more "male" attitude and way of doing things)

i was raised by a liberal mother who did everything for herself. raised 5 kids while running a business. with no childcare and as a single parent for the most of that time we were growing up.

i was encouraged to do follow lead and be successful.

however, it seemed a very unhappy life.

i have to ponder the idea that perhaps she would have had a much more satisfactory life if she hadn't been so determined to be equal and get her own way.

is it really so terrible to just accept women may sometimes, in certain fields of work, get paid less.

I also dont see why so many women strive to equal there partner in pay.

what is wrong with your other half being the greater earner. it is half the battle then when you go for maternity leave. you will be able to relax a little and enjoy it. than worrying that the main salary is cut drastically as the female is the higher earner.

i know a few on here will want to flame me. but i would actually like to see a reasonable debate on why so many women are so determined to do everything.

tell me why you want equality so badly.

convert me!!

Elmo, I think pretty much everyone here has been arguing along Madam's lines. It was your initial assumptions that seem to have had you messed up. Glad you have been "converted"!

I think your OP has very little to do with equality between sexes. Most women I know want to earn a good salary to pay their mortgage and help supporting their family, not to compete with their partner's salary.
I earn a very good salary and DH is currently a part-time SAHD. I don't think I have higher levels of testosterone than other women. Its just the way it worked out for our family and we support eachother. I think perhaps what you would have liked is for your mother to have someone to share things with too? It would not have made her any less equal or liberal though, so I am not sure I understand what you mean.

Elmondella,
i was going to half-agree with you then i read the line about the pay and i was .
Of course i want equal pay with a man if we do the same job.

On the other hand i agree that some jobs more suitable for men and others for women. I couldnt and wouldnt like to become a builder.
And i m not one of those women who insist to fix the taps, ceiling, plumbing, just to prove a point. Am happy to sit back and let dh do it

But i WANT to have same rights, options, my bank account, all legal rights.
In few words i dont want equality but i definetely want respect and opportunities/options.

Yes you do want equality as you want the same opportunities/options, whether you then decide to take those opportunities or options is up to you.

Yes you are right Libra.
What i meant was 'i dont want to be identical to man'

I can see where you are coming from OP. Although I think you are wrong in saying that we should not be equal, or have equal pay.
I do think, however, that there is too much pressure on women to be the same as men, which we are not. I think feminism has, in some ways, put more pressure on women.
My mother worked full time in a proffesional job whilst also raising a child and keeping a pretty perfect house. My dad worked full time.
My mom saw herself as a feminist, but she was more downtrodden than many of her peers who stayed at home, not less.
In my opinion, the most important thing is choice. I am a working mother, but I choose this, I don't have to neglect my kids to work longer hours than the men at my workplace to prove some sort of feminist point.

The point of "equality" is that each person should be treated as an individual and given opportunities and rewards appropriate to their abilities and efforts. On average, men tend to have greater skills in some areas, and less in others, than women. However there are huge areas of overlap in individuals abilities. This isn't a small number of women with "high testosterone"! Or a small number of nurturing men. Many men are more suited to "caring" roles than traditionally masculine ones. Many women vice versa. Why should my choices and pay be limited by the fact that I am a woman? Why should another's choices be limited by the fact that he's a man? Equality means we all, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race etc should have equal access to opportunities.

Equal pay for equal work is one aspect of that - not the only one, but in a society which equates pay and status it's an important one. Equal access to education, equal opportunity to take maternity/paternity leave and to take leave to cover children's illness etc are also important.

IMO in answer to the OP, i agree to some extent. WOmen and men are different period. Every human being is different, has different talents, strnghts and weaknesses regardless of sex.

I don't however agree that there is ever a reason for two people to be paid differently if they are in the same position at work again this is regardless of sex i wouls say the same about race and religion becuase at hte end of the day they are doing the same job so the wage should be the same.

I also don't agree with things like 'boys will be boys' and such gender stereotyping like that.

I am not desperate for equality if i want to do something i will do it, im not bothered what sex i am.

I don't think all men are pigs and all women are good for is cleanig and childcare, i belive its the individual's personality/determination/strength and weaknesses rather than thier gender.

My daughter's friend from university has just started as a BA pilot. I earn 10x what my children's father earns. I love business and winning and being the best at what I do and marketing and all that stuff and I abhore dull domestic jobs. Perhaps I just have more testosterone than other women. I wonder if it relates to sex drive too.

Men and women should and are equal but different.

Very few women want to be identical to men and couldn't beeve if they wanted to be, even if they have testosterone injections as apparently some do to further their careers. Plenty of owmen however choose never to have children and hate them though - let's not forget those and plenty like me love our work. I went back to work when the babies were 2 weeks, full time and I've worked very happily over the last 24 years whilst being a mother of five although latterly for myself because I don't like managing people and that may well be a female thing to an extent but we work with how we are and where our talents lie.

The 250,000 UK stay at home fathers/househusbands do a pretty good job and we need to avoid generalisations which do women down and prevent men having a role at home. No reason a woman shoudl be lumbered with the lavatory brush. Male arms can clean the loo as well as female and any woman accepting it's 3am the toddler is crying I am female therefore yet again I get up is an idiot. You enable the abuse of yourself which is emcompassed in your being put on at home. More fool you if you accept those roles.

But do read the Female Brain or whatever that book is called. The fundamental differences between men and women are fascinating. It can mean women are better in amny senior jobs than men are actually and perhaps to some extent indicates we'd be better with men at home and women ruling but that's a different debate.

The examples of women working very long hours while also raising children and doing housework are a red herring - they are not trying to be the "equal" of men by doing this. If you heard of a man doing the same thing, he'd be the exception, not the rule! The fight for equality was never meant to be about doing everything single-handed, that was only a very narrow branch of we-don't-need-men-anyway attitude which had nothing to do with equality and everything to do with female supremacy.

Equality is about each person having the same rights and responsibilities. How they choose to exercise those will vary, but it's important that they have the rights, even if they choose to express them in ways which are not that different from the way of life of women who don't have those rights.

If the OP (or anyone) wants to take a lower-paid job, work less hours, give up their career when they start a family, rely totally on a male breadwinner, etc because hat is what they fel will be the best choicefor them and their childen, then I'm happy for them. But they should never feel that just by being female and fertile those things are automatically their lot in life.

A bit gobsmacked at this thread. Totally agree with MI and Xenia. I earn more than dh and he is far more nurturing than me. I don't believe I have an excess of male hormone or that he has an excess of female hormone.

I have no desire to be an equal to men either. That is not true feminism at all.

'Equality is about each person having the same rights and responsibilities. How they choose to exercise those will vary'

have only skimmed the thread, but this sums it up.

Why on earth should any sector of society not be equal?

The OP is on very dodgy ground IMO

It's not 'feminism' that has made some women unhappily work longer hours than they would like at the expense of a private life. It's a particular strand of capitalism that expects certain employees to put the job before anything else - lots of the men who work in high-pressure long-hours jobs would rather not have to spend so much time in the office. Though the big salaries make it a bit less painful for them - and poor people (male and female) have always had to work long hours. You don't hear many people blaming feminism and finger-pointing about 'selfish career women' when it comes to the single mothers doing a dayshift in the chip shop, a night shift in the pub and a weekend shift scrubbing other people's kitchens with the DC being looked after by various relatives, do you?

Very well said solidgold

But i ve got a question for those who say that men and women can do the same jobs. How many have employ male-nanny?
I m asking because when i was a nanny i had a male friend who was struggling to find job in childcare because of his gender.

I don't know what you mean by determined to do everything.

Do you mean work and raise children? Because that's something that the majority of women do and is a perfectly normal part of life.

As for being paid equally - are you seriously telling me that women should not be paid as much as men for the same jobs? Because that sounds beyond strange to me. Why do you think that women should be paid less?

Unfortunately many women only have themselves to blame if they partner and have kids with men who won't take a fair share of childcare and domestic responsibilities.

I am shocked by the number of women who routinely accept that as well as going out to work, they will do the majority of the home stuff. Why?

I've employed a male au-pair - and a male cleaner and window cleaner. I'm not sure of the point of the question. FWIW the male aupair was FANTASTIC.

I was the main wage earner for years. All the money went in the pot. These days it's the other way round, but only just - and mostly due to dh getting an expat tax break that I can't get.

I get offers (well of interviews anyway) for jobs that involve lots of foreign travel. I turn them down as it's not practical as dh is away quite a bit. And I don't really want to be away from dd every week anyway. Xenia would probably tell me I'm letting the side down and should get an au pair. But I'm really not that bothered. I'm happy to go and do my time and come home and do family things.

Does that make me less equal than dh? To me we are a partnership. Stuff needs doing, it gets done. In fact I feel superior as he is useless unless I kick his arse.

Quattro,
the point of the question was that i think there is stereotyping regarding jobs both ways. We women sometimes do this when employing nannies. And i gave the example of my male friend.

Au Pair, cleaner, and especially window cleaner, is very different post than nanny.
How many have you employ male nanny to look after little baby 40 hours per week? Not many. Even so, many of us admit that our dh is better than us with DC...

"is it really so terrible to just accept women may sometimes, in certain fields of work, get paid less"

Yes, of course. I am amazed that you would even ask that question

Have read further.

Agree with sgb. No-one's job should demand such a huge % of their energies and time that they have insufficient left for the rest of their lives. And that applies whether or not they possess a penis.

I have never had a nanny but have been in the decision making process for hiring several men to look after children.