to not be insistant that the sexes are equal?

[elmoandella]

why do we have to be equal in all aspect of life??

we are not the same.

women are better at some of life's tasks. men are better at others.

obviously there are exceptions to this.(women with high levels of testerone for eg. tend to have a more "male" attitude and way of doing things)

i was raised by a liberal mother who did everything for herself. raised 5 kids while running a business. with no childcare and as a single parent for the most of that time we were growing up.

i was encouraged to do follow lead and be successful.

however, it seemed a very unhappy life.

i have to ponder the idea that perhaps she would have had a much more satisfactory life if she hadn't been so determined to be equal and get her own way.

is it really so terrible to just accept women may sometimes, in certain fields of work, get paid less.

I also dont see why so many women strive to equal there partner in pay.

what is wrong with your other half being the greater earner. it is half the battle then when you go for maternity leave. you will be able to relax a little and enjoy it. than worrying that the main salary is cut drastically as the female is the higher earner.

i know a few on here will want to flame me. but i would actually like to see a reasonable debate on why so many women are so determined to do everything.

tell me why you want equality so badly.

convert me!!

Dittany, absolutely agree. All the evidence suggests that for the majority of the time that humans have existed, most of the providing has been done by women.

Perhaps anthropology should be taught in schools.

And I personally am not biologically driven to 'feel happier at toddler group than board meetings' ffs.

Good points Hatwoman, Pink Poinsettas, and Dittany!

And where, pray, do you get that justification for 'women with high levels of testosterone'?

it's not fair for a man to be paid more for doing EXACTLY the same as a woman.

but why cant it just be accepted how things are.

as pointed out above. we have gained several landmarks. the right to vote,etc,etc

the thing is. most women are better at nurturing.and if i child is sick. nature will always give the mother a greater pull to take the day off and care for a child than a father.

it's just nature.

i understand that this (amoung many other factors) is one of the MANY reasons that women were given lower pay all this time.

it's not fair. but why can it not be accepted.

there are jobs where women are better.

for example. a child minder.

most people would choose a childminder who was a mother that was more expensive over the cheaper male childminder.

the female childminder would definately make a greater salary over the year than her male counterpart who would be able to the job as equally good.

Eh?

Of course it can't be accepted that it's how things are. Well, it can, of course, if you want to be treated badly, but here in the 21st century some of us wish, you know, to be treated as the educated informed people - of whatever gender - that we are.

And frankly if the only (spurious, and undocumented) example you can give is of a childminder, which is a notoriously badly-paid job...

'nature will always give the mother a greater pull to take the day off and care for a child than a father'. What makes you insist on this? when one of my daughters is ill, one of her parents takes a day off. Sometimes that is me. Sometimes it isn't. It depends on what other commitments we have.

I disagree that a woman automatically would be better at being a child minder than a man. I think it is our pre-conceptions that lead us to being happier having a woman take care of our children. My DH would probably be much better at it than me for example.

motherinferior i asked for a reason why you are so determined to seek out equality in every aspect in life.

if you are this way inclined then enlighten me.

dont continue to hark on repeating and critising my responses unless you are willing to give your side of the debate.

i am looking to enter a discussion about equality in all aspects of life. not just wages!!

i wasn't saying a female child minder would be better.

they could both be equally as efficient.

yet given the choice most people would choose the female over the male.

Er...because I'm a human being? Because I don't see why my genitalia should mark me out as somehow separate and worse than a man's? I don't want to be put in some sort of box of 'nurturing'. I want to be able to use my brain and my earning power in the same field as a man's, thank you very much, not told that I should be somehow 'different' and 'womanly'.

"why cant it just be accepted how things are."

Um, because if human beings just accepted that that's how things are, we would never have abolished slavery, child labour, smallpox, human sacrifice, etc. etc. And we would never have discovered electricity, anti-biotics, fire, etc.

In fact, we'd still be the major food providers for our families in their caves.

"why cant it just be accepted how things are."

Um, because if human beings just accepted that that's how things are, we would never have abolished slavery, child labour, smallpox, human sacrifice, etc. etc. And we would never have discovered electricity, anti-biotics, fire, etc.

In fact, we'd still be the major food providers for our families in their caves.

And wages are absolutely crucial.

Everyone should have equal rights, equal pay for equivalent jobs, equality of opportunity (for everything except actual childbearing )

But everyone is also unique and shouldn't feel coerced into either adopting gender-sterotypical roles OR into trying to do everything if they don't want to.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who assumed this thread was a joke, I saw it earlier this morning and ignored it (only the OP was here at the time) as I thought it was a silly piss take.

I'm with MI on most of this, and would also like to ask where you draw the line for women and achievements outside the spnere of home? And what about women who never have / don't want children? What are they to do?

Yes, it's equity, not absolute equality that is important, but why on earth would anyone settle for being told there is only so much you can do, so far you can go, because you are female not male?

Well elmo my dp is better at 'nurturing' than I am and I consider myself to be hormonally balanced.

We work out who should take the day off if our child is sick according to our diary that day rather than the 'pull of nature'

I find your posts a bit . I'm off to burn my bra

Also, the 'we're different' argument justifies the fact that at the moment women in the UK (and worldwide) do far more housework than men, do the cooking, all the basic stuff that goes with 'nurturing' but is actually just the drudgery of daily life. You may feel happy having this assigned to by virtue of lacking a Y-chromosome. I'd rather live with a man who does an equal share of cleaning and cooking and therefore enables me as well as him to get on with the rest of my life.

elmoandella, I am not sure what kind of job you are thinking of where the man is doing more than the woman. It seems to me like some kind of office environment where both men and women work but the man is able to stay longer or focus more because he is not a mum and so is doing more at work? Is that what you mean?

Was told by and E&D worker that women in those roles are often overqualified for their jobs, as a result of having children they are not promoted, so if anything they should be paid more. I liked that Belgium idea where they would have to pay you taking your qualifications into account. People only started saying 'degrees aren't of any use in the real world' after women became the majority of graduates.

In a lot of the best jobs it is so competitive that it would not be a case of women were paid less, but that women were just not allowed to do them. We can't go back to that.

Equal pay came in after some female paint can fillers complained and got the law changed because they got paid less then their male coworkers for doing exactly the same job in exactly the same way for exactly the same clock in/out hours. Unequal pay laws were changed over that specific case, where women clearly did the same amount.

Are you looking for justification to be a sahm? because you dont need it, if you want to be a sahm thats fine, nothing wrong with that and it doesent make you inferior to wohms, but dont pull down women who want to work and are fighting to stay on par with men in our society, if it were not for those women you would not have a choice of being a sahm, you would not be allowed to work anyway, your mother sounds like an inspiring woman, you should be proud of her

I think the OP is confused. Being equal in value does not mean being identical. Yes, men and women are different. That goes without saying. But are we equally valuable? Damn right.

OP, have you never had someone telling you that you were not allowed to do a job because you are female?

I have, twice. Once as Saturday staff in Halfords (I couldn't sell bikes - men's work - despite being a keen and knowledgeble cyclist, but had to work the till - women's work), once not being allowed to supplement my earnings in a residential job by doing the night security round (basically making sure the doors were locked) as, again, that was 'men's work'.

It's frustrating and wrong.

It's not a coincidence that it's 'women's work' which is lower paid, it's a construct.