to want my DS to attend a more white than black school?

[NattyTurkeyAndEggnog]

am posting this timidly in case it is misinterpred...

there is a choice of two catholic schools locally, one is three quaters black african, and the other is three quaters white british.

now i said to dh that id prefer the white majority school, as i feel my white children would fit in better, and i would with the other parents. i dont mean it in a way that i think white ppl are better, or anything like that, in fact the other school has higher exam results. just that i am concerned with sending my child to a school that they will be very much a minority.

but DH said that he should go to the better results school.

now im torn, because im very aware that kids pick up on a child being different, and i was bullied horrendously in school.

please dont read this as a black/white thing, i would feel the same about him going to a non-religous school for the same reasons.

ok i will stand back and wait for the back lash now

BTW - I didn't think you were being racist (or if people think you were I don't think you meant to). I understand that if a child has SN then the school that child goes into has to meet their needs.
Read nookas post on page 11 - very good points made there.

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Most schools should be as oops says - very inclusive. Sometimes though they don't have a very good attitude - but they should.

As others have said - visit both schools and get a feel for them.

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'I don't see that being part of 25% is a problem at all. If it were 1% I'd give it some thought though. If it were me I wouldn't want to be the only white child, the only black child, the only athiest child, the only religous or the only poor child.'

I picked dd's school on whether it was the best. She is the only one in her class that is 'different'. Do I give a stuff? Not really. So she's in that 1% and so far, no bullying issues.

Some very sensible advice from from Nooka and Oops. Fair enough, you have valid concerns about bullying/socialising due to your DS's SN. Speak to the schools - the head, the senco etc about support for special needs and social skills. I would also try and go have a look at the school at playtime and try and gauge the atmosphere and where they have enough staff supervising. Also speak to your local early years/pre-school inclusion services - they may also be helpful about your boy's transition to school.

And lastly - nothing is set in stone - as long as there are places, if your boy is unhappy at one school, you can always move him.

need - you forgot to recommend home ed

there isn't a sticky out tongue emoticon is there TC

Natty you have concerns for your child being bullied more at one school than another. That concern is based, not on knowing the ethical make up of the children and parents of the school, but the ethnic make up. You are basing your decision that your child will be more likely to be picked on at the school with a higher proportion of non white children on the colour of the children's skin. That is racist.

Non white people speak a variety of languages, including English. I went to an International School - English was the only language we all had in common.

The fact that the school with a higher non white population is getting better results points to it being more settled than the other. It sounds as if it has risen to the challenge of integrating all its pupils and suceeded. I would be beating a path to its door as it shows that is able to welcome differences in all its forms - race, disability, learning ability, weight, background.

NattyTurkey I think you are transferring your worries on to your kid. To be bullied is not an inherited diseases. Racism sadly can be given to your kid and not help him in the long term. I really haven't got time for this. But I think you need change your belief structures even if you just start with your language.

i am pleased to see that overnight this thread has transformed from an hysterical shouting match to something more thoughtful, constructive and challenging. i think lots of people make very valid points. and i think Natty will have definitely benefitted from all of this, she sounds like someone who is actually quite open minded even though perhaps not particularly brilliant at nuancing her words.

I don't think she particularly benefitted from the racist stoning she was initially subjected to- even if her attitude to race is questionable i think it is far better to discuss than simply attack.

but i feel that for a lot of (white) people it is much easier and more comfortable to just label someone as racist as it makes us feel so much better about ourselves, without the need to question or confront our own attitudes.

DD is the only white child in her nursery group at school. There is one other white girl in the 3 nursery groups, all the other children are black, asian, mixed race or chinese.

The area around the school is about 10% white, 15% black, 70% asian and about 5% others, so it's fairly representative of where we live.

We chose the school for a number of reasons (catholic, walkable, before & after school club, excellent results) and I have to admit, when being shown around on their open day, I felt a slight qualm that there were no white children whatsoever in any of the classes we saw.

However, it is such a good school with such a lovely atmosphere that this slight qualm was pretty much instantly dismissed.

Unfortunately (I've posted about this elsewhere) the other white child is a bit of a horror with distinctly odd parents, but DD wants to be friends with her (aargh!). Her best friend, a lovely little girl with a really nice mum, is black.

My experience (so far, she's only been at school one term!) has been entirely positive. Hope that yours will be too, Natty, no matter what you decide.

FWIW, I went to a 99% white catholic school and had the shit bullied out of me for being 'posh' (ie not talking with a scouse accent), a swot (wearing glasses and being good at English), a nerd (not being good at games) and a freak (I liked science fiction and got on with the boy geeks of similar inclinations). Despite being white, I have very yellowy-olive skin and flat black hair, so with the addition of NHS specs spent most of my school years being spat at and called 'Chinky' by the bullies. Even when you're in the majority, a bully will find something to pick on.

It is not racist to fear that being in a minority may have unpleasant consequences. Otherwise we'd be telling everyone who fears or experiences racism or homophobia or or prejudice against disability or sexism* to shut up and stop moaning.

You may be in the majority generally but can still suffer from being in a minority in a specific circumstance such as work or school or a social group.

As people have said, I suspect the answer to fears about a school that is dominated by one ethnic group to which you don't belong is to visit the school and get a feel for it. FWIW my (white) niece goes to a girl's school with a majority of Asian pupils who travel some distance to get there because their parents want single-sex education. She's fine although it's a shame most of her friends live quite far away.

(I know they are technically more women than men in the country but we do suffer discrimination as historically we are less powerful politically and socially etc. etc. etc.)

By MrsMattie on Sat 13-Dec-08 22:32:12
"No. Fuck what UQD said. Why do so many of the 'reasonable' posts make the quiet assumption that all MN-ers are white.Really, really pisses me off."

Well, it pisses me off that you make the assumption that people make this assumption.

There are far more pertinent issues with a child who potentially has ASD. Two of mine do, after all- so I suspect I know a little about it. One of mine is now in a good Juniors after being in a terrible Infants. getting the right SENCO, IEP, etc is everything. A sxchool that will work with the LA is all important. DS1 was refused help all the way through Infants and now has far more complex issues than he ever would probably have developed otherwise and these issues may take the independence I beleive he otherwise would have had. DS3 was forced by the LEA to fail in MS before being given a place at the unit he needs and we have begged for since day one. Even now his actual transfer could be months away as the system moves so very slowly.

Co,our is irrelevant: small children don't notice it anyway. Attitude to SN and inclusion is what matters.

'And lastly - nothing is set in stone - as long as there are places, if your boy is unhappy at one school, you can always move him. '

Ah true, and if he does get a diagnosis and then a statement (never a given) this move will be made even easier as he will go to the top of waiting lists at any school you request, or at least have specified n said statement. Kids always leave every year so he will pretty much almost guaranteed a place anywhere you fancy, if his SN ever gets to that level of need.

Very true, Peachy re. the school being able to deal with SN - my elder brother has (mild) CP, meaning he walks oddly and has problems with his writing/general co-ordination - he went to the same (99% white, good academically) school I did and also had the shit bullied out of him because of his disability - certain teachers didn't help by telling him he should be in a 'special school' in front of the class . Thank God things have moved on slightly since the late 70's...

get over yourself, welcome to new earth as you say these are catholic schools- god made all things bright and beautiful now now where did obama go again?

" By beforesunrise on Sun 14-Dec-08 10:59:44
i am pleased to see that overnight this thread has transformed from an hysterical shouting match to something more thoughtful, constructive and challenging. i think lots of people make very valid points. and i think Natty will have definitely benefitted from all of this, she sounds like someone who is actually quite open minded even though perhaps not particularly brilliant at nuancing her words."

unfortunately i see no evidence that the op has tried to take on board any of the more 'difficult' advice that's been given. she's been very quick to thank those that have supported her, and put more reasonable-sounding words into her mouth for her. but those who suggest that she looks at herself and her own prejudices have just had 'stuff you, i'm not a racist' as replies (or sanctimonious nonsense as stayfrosty points out). i've seen this attitude so much in racism awareness training - it is hard for people to admit to themselves that they have prejudices, even harder to see that they might need to do some soul-searching to address them, and it's easier just to say 'f* you' to the person who tries to point it out.

as someone earlier said, not unwittingly passing on your own prejudices is something really important you can try to do for your kids. but it does involve some pretty painful self-examination!

haven't read all the posts but it seems to me the OP's prime concern is her child "fitting in"? Yet she was bullied by other kids with the same colour skin as her and not the black kids at school, so I don't get the logic of the argument, sorry.

I don't understand the problem about the school with mostly "black" children really. Surely they're children like any others? Some will be nice, some may not be so nice, and the same goes for the parents? What sort of an example does it teach our kids to assume that just because someone is black our child won't fit in and the parents may not be friend material either? As an adult do you look round a room at a party and automatically discount those with darker skins as worth striking up a conversation with? I just don't get it. Kids make friends with who they want to and the colour of skin doesn't come into it for them; that's purely a parental prejudice.

FWIW my kids go to a school where about 20% of the kids have parents born in India/Pakistan or have black British parents born in the UK for several generations. So 80% of the kids are white, my kids are white, and both their best friends were born in the UK and come from families originally from pakistan. This is my children's choice and they like these friends best, end of!! What they gain from these relationships is immense as they are exposed to other types of food, info about Muslim festivals and all sorts of other cultural differences. They will grow up accepting everyone for what they are not who they are. This is what British society looks like today - it's multicultural, and rich in diversity, so why can't an awareness of that start at school?

I have only read Natty's messages (and enough replies to see how badly she was received).
I am sad to see you got such a hard time, I didn't hear the OP as racist at all. I was badly bullied in school so I TOTALLY understand how sensitive it makes you to anything that might cause your children to suffer likewise.

In hindsight, I know my parents could have done a lot to eliminate my problems, they just chose not to see them. . I suspect you're more aware than your parents were, too. This will make a big difference for your child as opposed to your own experience.

My hunch would be to go for the school that 'feels' better when you visit, and that as long as your child starts there in reception, their differences will almost certainly be seen as acceptable by their peer group. It's when a 'weird' new child joins after about Yr2 or so, that children are less tolerant/more likely to bully.

I think the saddest thing about the OP is that she seems not to have moved on from the black (them) white (us) kind of mentality.

Viewing all black people as a homogeneous mass and all white people as another homogeneous mass of people. Rather than seeing people, of varying skin tones, as individuals. This is the kind of thinking that lies behind the 'they all look the same to me' comments.

Once you see people as individuals from all kinds of different cultural backgrounds, then the threat of bullying from a black kid is obviously no more likely than from a white and the idea of being in a 'minority' or a 'majority' is not based on children's skin tone but whether they like sport or music are geeks, or whatever!

My daughter has much more in common with many of her mixed race and black friends than she does with many of the white children in her school. A love of sport and of dancing. I hope the OP can see through her narrow mindedness and that her children will become the first generation in her family to be skin tone blind!