to want to post on the "For my husband to earn £65,000 per annum and we still can't afford to live"..... thread because it's full???

[chockywocky]

i cant believe its full and and havent had my say.....

Well I can't see many people who disagree with you there Xenia. Why didn't you just say so in the first place!!

I am all for equality in parenting. My kids are every bit as much my husband's as mine. For us this translated into each of us working part time for a period while they were small (though obviously I was the one who had maternity leave). At various points in our careers, each of us has taken the dominant role in dropping at nursery/picking up etc - this has worked really well for us and has enabled us to each be hands on in work and hands on in parenting. eg DH did all the before and after school dropping and collecting, took care of paying cheques for childcare etc for about 5 years as I was commuting further away and was in a more senior position. He has now had a big promotion so I've stepped forward and do more of the home stuff.

I think you're absolutely correct Xenia that we should be talking about parenting rather than 'mothers and fathers'. We're not exactly different species after all. I'm just as able to go out and earn as my DH is, and he's just as able to play with the kids or cook the dinner. Ain't rocket science!

i am a feminist and a stay at home woman
when i was pregnant my dp was still a student so i saved every penny to pay off his £12k debt ( a lot in 1999)

since then he has worked to pay for the family - although we now run a business so i do have some input

I am neither bored nor boring
I may try to make myself look nice for him but then i hope he does for me
I love my life and will not regret my choices
Its not easy

I RESPECT and ADMIRE working mothers but that is not my choice

whoops 1992 - too much Prince!

I work 3/4 days a week (my ds is nearly 3) and would go absolutely nuts if I didn't. I was gagging to go back to work and use my brain after 10 mo maternity leave. I feel like I have best of both worlds now - I work and have a great career.

That's not to say it hasn't bee a rough ride. The original job I was in before having a baby that I went back to, clearly was never going to offer me a promotion whilst I was part time. So I left.

I'm a single mum and taz credits really sort me out. What's crap is when ds or the childminder is sick.

Xenia - while I have somehow managed to persuade my dh that to share caring for sick children and everything around the house, I still organise the childcare and do more childcare simply because I work fewer hours than him. I would like to agree with you that we should be aiming for 50/50 on everything but deep down a part of me would rather be in charge and leave me with a greater chance of custody if it ever came to divorce. (I am also of the "it could never happen to meee" brigade but not so naive to think that there are no divorcees who ever thought that).

fact remains that even when women work full-time they still do the majority of the housework and childcare....oh well, that's equality for you!

This idea of 50/50 division and insistence on men doing the childcare, etc intrigues me, as in many ways it's sexist in itself. Lots of people on here have had shoddy treatment at the hands of their other halves, which is obviously horrendous and I really do sympathise, but if you're lucky enough to have a solid equal partnership, surely you work out who's good at what and your gender shouldn't come into it. In our house, it doesn't work out 50/50 in terms of childcare and housework, but that's not because he's the man and I'm the woman, it's merely how our lives are organised.
Friends in lesbian relationships have similar divisions - one tends to do more of the oft imagined to be female roles, but that's either circumstantial or a choice between the couple. It's in no way sexist (can't be can it if they're both women!)
Now maybe I live in a rare sort of bubble, but I'd say most of my friends have similar set ups - yes even those in relationships with men.
So doesn't my experience shows that women are getting there? That lots of men don't see women as non-equals or domestic servants, and that actually it wouldn't even enter their heads. That a lot of my friends (both men and women) who think this way, were raised in families with SAHM, so they've come through that still impressed by strong independent women, who aren't tied to the home if they don't want to be. So that must mean, that shock horror, having a SAHM, absolutely doesn't make you conform to traditional role models at all. All that matters is that your mother feels good about herself and is vaguely sane. Not whether she works or doesn't work.
Bit of rant now, but come on, let's have a bit of positivity - why not on a cold November day. Society is slowly getting better and to be so stridently anti male isn't always a help. Am not denying there's a fair way to go, but the key is in meeting men who aren't sexist. If they are then tame them or reject them..! Honestly I wouldn't be in a relationship with someone who assumed I'd do the childcare rather than him because I'm a woman. No woman should.

Excellent post Smee. DH and I play to our strengths without fretting over stereotypes as sexism's just not an issue in our household. Although I sometimes wish he had a pair of lactating boobs.

BTW I must live in the same bubble.

Great post Smee .

Puzzlerocks...yes wouldn't it be wonderful if our DHs could do the b'feeding..... and have the pregnancies!!

Yeah, that always bugged me too. The bubble has some flaws...

It's not like Smee;s perfect world though for most couples. Most working women do most childcare arrangemtns and most of the housework. If you're with a man like that you're better off not working. What you want to avoid is doing everything at home plus working. It's the worst deal of all and often what women end up with when they take the suposedly better option of part time work which usually means you get landed with almost full time at work and the excuse from the man that you must do everything at home (if it's a sexist man as so many are).

I don't think anyone advocates splitting all tasks 50/50 although I believe very father ought to know how to cope if left for a weekend alone without any help with a 1, 3 and 4 year old from time to time. What 50/50 means is taht in terms of the hours you spend on domestic things it's a fair division. It means if you both work and he plays golf for 5 hours on Saturday you get 5 hours free on Sunday to do what you choose.

In our long marriage where I think we did split things fairly (but was that just because I earned more and therefore the one who earns more has the power and control to force the changes on the lower earner?), we divided tasks., He put the washer and dishwasher on every morning and I had nothing to do with washing most of the time and didn't even think about it. He washed all the cloth nappies when we didn't use disposables. I did our tax returns for 17 years. I never took a child to the dentist in 17 years he always arranged and did that. I got the school bags ready. I plaited the girls' hair. We both supervised homework and music practice.

In terms of the ract women give birth I chose to work until the day of the birth and go back after 2 weeks but I was the one who got up in the first year at night to breastfeed. He then in return got up for all the night waking in years 2 and 3 which I think evened things out.

Xenia your right, the worst deal of all to be lumbered with is to be working full time and doing all the domestic/childcare chores.

But how would you feel about being happy to be a SAHM till the dcs start school and then desparately wanting to go back to work but being stopped from doing so by a high-earning husband who refuses to do any of the unpaid work. I am desparate to work but with 3 dcs in primary school and a dh refusing to take dcs to dentist/asthma clinic/after school club/stay home when kids off sick blah de blah I have no choice. No employer is gonna put up with that are they?

But Xenia, if most working mothers do most of the childcare and housework, then they've only got themselves to blame! No one holds a gun to your head and tells you it's your job to do the housework! I think we have to start from the point of view that women and men are equals, and equally capable of making decisions. If a woman ends up doing more, then it's her acceptance of the situation as much as the man's responsibility.

While the absolute 50/50 split seems ideal, in reality it won't always work out that way. A lot of careers aren't flexible enough to take a step back, and then suddenly step up a gear when it suits. There's always going to be an element of compromise and trying to find the 'best fit' solution - that's life.

However, I think a lot of parents these days do want a relationship that is more evenly balanced than those of previous generations - and that's entirely understandable because society has changed radically over recent decades. Among my mother's generation, it was comparatively rare for mothers to work. But then it was also less common for women to go to University, and to enter certain professions. Society has moved on from that. We now see girls outperforming boys at almost every level educationally. And women have access to all kinds of career at every level. Alongside this, there has been a big change in how men perceive their place in society. They are no longer expected to go out to work, pay the bills and then come home to have dinner on the table and the kids ready for bed. Fathers want to be hands on parents. It therefore seems logical that many parents don't want to be pigeonholed into 'carer' or 'provider' - they are realising that they can both do both things - and enjoy them and find them immensely satisfying.

nametaken - my post crossed with yours, but I guess it kind of responds to yours in a way. Did you not discuss these issues with your husband before embarking on kids? Have you talked about why he is unwilling to do any of the day to day caring stuff?

If the answer is that he is in a high earning high pressure job, and he feels that by doing this he has enabled you to stay home for the last few years, then it may be that he's now not prepared to budge and compromise now that you've decided you want a job too.

I don't think there is an easy answer. But your post highlights the importance of talking through this kind of thing. If you want equality in a relationship, then make that clear at the outset.

Findtheriver - I think you're being a bit idealistic. My situation changed from 50/50 on maternity leave and has never fully reverted. In the society we live in at the moment it does kind of make sense for one person to piss off their boss (because of parental commitments) and not both. It is a fact of our society at the moment that the mother is usually the one who makes the sacrifice.

To improve this situation for women we need the work place to be more flexible and open to the contribution mothers can make, while still being prime carers. The more legislation we can get to help with that the better and the more men who benefit from that the better too. But to say women should just make their men tow the line isn't going to get us anywhere fast.

I don't think it's idealistic tbh. And employment legislation has changed radically anyway over recent years. Millions of parents now have the right to request flexible working, if they feel they cannot or don't want to work full time.
I think it's very negative to talk about 'pissing off the boss'. (But then I'm a boss myself!)
I want people who are able to do an excellent job. Doesnt matter to me whether they are male or female. And I employ some people who work with flexible arrangements, and as long as it doesn't impact negatively on the business or on other colleagues then that's fine.

dp and i share domestic stuff although i am sahp

I am here to look after the children not just clean loos

Today is a good day here on my visit to the layand of oppertoonity.

So I'd like to say that I LOVE my job. I am actually sorry for being mean to the original OP for whining about her husband's lack of shekels. Because that OP was missing something dynamic and fun and exciting that can add a whole new dimension as well as being financially rewarding.

Hooray for work.

I wish either I or my dh had a boss like you ftr. Being legally allowed to request flexibility doesn't feel very empowering to me if I know they will say no anyway.

findtheriver, it is a little bit patronising to say "did you not discuss these issues when you first married".

We did, and then my dh, after he'd had what he wanted, didn't deliver his side of the bargain. What am I supposed to do. Not do the unpaid childcare because he won't? Someone has to take the kids for their eye test. You can't not do it just because the other partner won't. Or is that what I should be doing. Shall I refuse to take my son to the hospital next time he has an asthma attack because my dh won't do it?

Things change all the time. Marriage isn't something with a set of rules and regulations, it has to be flexible.

what is your job Quattrocento (intrigued!)

Absolutely nametaken, I agree that marriage has to be flexible. And refusing to take the kids to appointments, including going to the hospital with an asthma attack sounds totally inflexible to me!

I share nothing with anyone and have a senior and fulfilling job, its possible. My compromise is working for a small comapny which is significantly less well paid but more flexible.

Lucky for me I have no choice. I work or we live on benefits. Avoids the need for any angst or defensiveness or evangelism about whtehr to work or not.

I work.

No more to it than that really (apart from the odd practical detial or two).

Xenia - arranging childcare generally falls on the woman because even in households the point at which childcare is initally arranged is when the woman is returning to work and has just spent months looking after their child and therefore is the most knowledgeable as to what sort of care is best for the child.

Most SAHDs don't do at least the first few months because of breastfeeding/recovering from birth.

there is nothing sexist in it just biological.