to want to post on the "For my husband to earn £65,000 per annum and we still can't afford to live"..... thread because it's full???

[chockywocky]

i cant believe its full and and havent had my say.....

Isn't it terribly vulgar to be obsessed with status and money anyway?

I couldn't give a toss tbh (just as well, cos I have neither)

I think daftpunk hit the nail on the proverbial when she said this is about personality types.
I see time and again on here that some people are extremely driven and simply don't understand how others are not. Ditto, the less driven cannot get into the opposite mind set.
Xenai is just like my DH. In fact I suspect they work together . But if he were not a lawyer he would still be driven. If he were a politician he'd be Prime Minister, as a doctor he'd be leading research progs. Some people are just like that.
My DH would rather run down the square mile naked with his bollocks flapping in the wind than spend the morning playing computor games...but that's what makes needmorecoffee happy.
And if they are both happy then what's the problem?
It's those that whine I can't stand.

SYB - I seriously don't think people work just for the money.
I heard Chami Chakrabati (sp) on the radio four - desert island discs - and she clearly adores her work. I doubt she gets paid anywhere near as much as a commercial lawyer.
Still it was obvious she wouldn't do anything else and didn't feel that she was a second rate mother.

I'm still processing the image of litchicks dh, and wind flapping bolleux

Litchick - some of us SAHM mothers are also "driven". This is what irritates me on this thread - some of the working mums talking down to SAHMs implying we are not as bright, intellectual or driven.

I consider that I'm "driven" and used to be 100% committed to my job working long hours, travelling abroad etc...I realised it would be impossible to be that committed to my job and at the same time a good parent to my pre-school children. That is why I am currently a SAHM.

Also do you working Mums realise that us "SAHMS" do not actually stay at home all day...we are out meeting up with our bright, intelligent graduate friends whilst enjoying watching our children play at the same time. I read the online papers each day and listen to far more Radio 4 than I had time to do whilst working.

I am sure there are Mums of all personality types working, and Mums of all personality types at home with their children, and Mums of all personality types working part time.

why is it utter b...x?

You have no idea of my personal circumstances.

oh - whoops - crossed post!

Thanks for the apologies Annie

Happywomble - I agree with your sentiments. I think it is very hard 'to have it all' if you are driven since you won't be able to give that 100% commitment to your job and also to your child. Well I know I wouldn't either. There aren't enough hours in the day.

The article I posted yesterday (which nobody read ) talked about being driven and said that women may become less driven but more demanding. I think that has to happen to me or I will never go back to work for somebody else. I take the statment to mean that women want a job that suits them, to which they can give their all but which doesn't compromise their time with their children more than they are willing to compromise.

Re the SAHM not staying at home all day - it has been said many times before, along with how many SAHMs, in my experience, also do voluntary work, help out their husbands businesses or careers or study mind enhancing things.........but they never believe us.

The die-hard WOHM (Xenia mainly but not exclusively) seem to think that all we do is clean and change nappies. Bless!

Ah - thanks for your lovely post Anniemac.

Yes of course one can be a good parent and work!

I have friends who have continued to do jobs involving International travel while their children are young..it all depends on DHs job, proximity of parents, affordability of childcare etc. as to whether it is practical to continue such jobs after having children.

Thanks for your lovely post too Niecie. Could you attach a link to your post yesterday..I'm afraid I must have missed it.

It would be lovely to find a job of the type you describe!

Its here - Is it really hard to return to work after baby?

I found it quite encouraging actually. Like most things I can't agree with it all but it was nice to hear that giving up work to be with your children is not necessary career suicide.

I like that it also acknowledges that we change when we have children and it is OK not to be so driven. Which is why I like the bit about being less driven and more demanding.

I also like the aha moment bit - when you get to the point where you feel that actually, you would like to be working again and now is the time. Still waiting for that myself but I think it is imminent!

The driven stay at homers can be the worst of the lot as they make the job of being with a child like work, tend to have targets, push it it walk early, do French at 2, see it as a job kind of thing. I suspect the driven ones with ambition are better off at work as they tend to be the ones at home who get fed up with it all.

(My point about happiness and who is around and about you has been shown in a number of studies - people are happiest when with people who earn a bit less and humans tend to be jealous. It's a really important issue and is why supposedly countries where people tend to earn about the same and the rich pay 60 - 80% tax are supposedly happier societies between there is less difference between rich and poor so this is not just some random theory I've invented)

Niecie - I agree that its a really good article.

My "aha" moment has not quite happened but I think it will once youngest DC is settled at school.

Of course it's perfectly possible to be an excellent parent and work! The two things are not mutually exclusive - thank goodness, seeing as the majority of parents do work.

Whatever is right for your own family, taking everyone's needs and your own circumstances into account (for whatever phase in your life, as of course people's circumstances change).

It's definitely not a case of missing out - you can be a working parent and enjoy all the lovely things about being a mummy and daddy too

xenia - the driven ones tend to be the ones who get fed up?

you have a awful lot of insight into something you have never done

Obsessives are tedious no matter where they come from. Obsessives about work, obsessives about their children. All dull people imo.

i think this thread is sad not just because of people's lack of respect for other people's choices but also people's lack of insight into what really is a choice.

To the investment banker who said if she worked she would only see dc at the weekends - then you haven't been given much choice have you. It is ridiculous that if you had wanted to go back to work but to leave an hour or two early to give yourself a little time with you dcs each day your contribution would be seen as worthless. The choice to stay at home is also a huge sacrifice in terms of your future re sick leave, pension, career progression etc.

I went back full time and cut my hours from 8.30-6.30 onwards down to closer to 9-5pm by being more efficient at work. I didn't chat to anyone and didn't stop for lunch or any other break. I got away with it because of my line of work.

Feminism is all about balancing motherhood and work - which ever way a mother sees fit - and if we can't support each other in our choices - then our daughters won't see much of a choice being presented to them by their mothers.

I actually think the balance between mothering and working comes down to fulfillment for the mother and the ability to trust your childcare. Some mothers have an ability to feel fulfilled through caring full time for their children some don't. (Likewise some feel fulfilled by work and some don't).

As for childcare I have been lucky enough to have access to a great nursery where I believe dcs get better care than if they were at home with me. When dd starts school I will have to readjust my thinking. There is a private school in our area that does 8-6pm and only shuts 4 weeks a year. If we could afford it that'd be great but as it is I don't trust anyone to provide good enough after school care for dd and am going to try desperately hard to reduce my hours. So for those who can afford to replace themselves at home then the current work environment may well seem attractive. Everyone will draw the line differently about how much they trust the available childcare to do an adequate job. Naturally people able to afford only low quality childcare will more likely opt to do it themselves.

We have the choice to home school in this country but most choose not to because we believe school teachers can do a better job. Until we live in a society where excellent childcare is available to all at reasonable cost (for which I would gladly pay 60% tax) and women can work at what they chose when they chose then I don't think anyone should be criticising each other for their decisions. (If and when we do I can't see us being bothered to criticise - it then really would be each to her own)

I really don't see why people get so het up about all this. Different strokes for different folks and all that. I went back to work when dd was 5 months old; my sister hasn't worked (formally speaking) since her eldest was born - now 12. Our household incomes are about the same. She 75% owns her house. We are renting and have no savings. We go on at least one foreign holiday a year. She goes camping.

I moan to her about being tired and never having enough time. She moans to me about the kids and is depressed about what to do with her life as she "can only work round the holidays". She is highly qualified but obviously out of the loop a bit. Who is the happiest? Who knows? I think we are both a bit jealous of each other.

It's all swings and roundabouts. Why can't we just support each other.

Some people just have very strong views such as a baby should not be left by its mother or that it's a bad example to daughters and loses women gains they have made at work for other women if they generally tend to stop work when they have children. I'd like to see a lot more pressure put on individual men by their wives though and no sexist assumptions eg when pregnant ask the husband which of them will stay at home, when he is going to start looking round nurseries. In other words ensure from day 1 chidlren have 2 parents and you are not as a woman in 2008 going to have foisted on you 100% of the childcare responsbility. That's when women make progress when they cease to tolerate sexism at home, when it's as likely as not the husband cleans the toilets and leaves work because a child is sick as the woman.

So I suppose my point is that it's about parents balancing work and home but never just women and that part of hte problems some couples have is that it is all seen as a woman's thing, not a responsibility of both parents.