To think all this talk of sex education is patronising to teenage mothers

[roseability]

A lot of teenagers want to start a family and know perfectly well how to use a condom

As a society we have actually created the problem by stigmatising teenage pregnancy. It doesn't conform to socioeconomic norms of educational and economic success thus it is wrong. By making it 'wrong' teenage mothers are marginalised and often receive poor antenatal care and fewer opportunities for themselves and their family.

There were actually more teenage mothers in the 1950s than in the 1990s. Of course in the 1950s it was acceptable to have a baby under the age of 20 (as long as you were married). I am not advocating forced marriage but the fact that society accepted it meant teenage mothers got a better deal (in terms of their image anyway)

Define teenager. There is a big difference between a 13 year old who does fall pregnant accidently through poor knowledge and a 19 year old who chooses to start a family young, but doesn't expect to be judged just because she isn't fulfilling society's expectations.

We are not going to stop teenage pregnancy. There are much wider socioeconomic, psychological and political issues surrounding young motherhood than sex education.

Personally I would be more worried about STDs and the damage to young people's health, this is where sex education should be aimed at.

I am sure teenage motherhood is tough and there are issues about the welfare of young mums and their babies but to conclude my point, it is society that has caused such issues. I am also sure that there are many great young mums doing a better job than older mothers.

Custy, surely that's why they need the support before they get pregnant. We need to show these girls there is another way.

If they thought of it in terms of closing all sorts of wonderful, exciting doors then perhaps that would make a difference.

i don't think that sex education is ever patronising... i am 33 and still learning about sex, relationships etc...

Sometimes teenagers think they know everything there is to know but I am afraid don't think they are right.

So what excactly is the right time to have a baby?

I did the same as some posters here: Wanted to live first, to study, travel, get drunk etc.

But guesss what? In my late 30s i saw all my friends struggling to get pregnant and having endless IVF treatments. I got \\\\\\\\\\\very panicked*. I still feel very very lucky that had first baby at 39 and 2nd at 40 1/2 with no IVF.
If i could turn the clock back i would do different.
And my mum is getting older and ill so she cant enjoy my DCs as she would earlier.
As for the cost to the society well, i hate saying this and i know i ll be flamed, but us older mums are more likely to have complications and cost more to the NHS.

I really dont want my dd to leave it too late like me. But cant tell her what age to have baby, can i? I mean there is not a magic number there, is any? How do you know when you aare going to have a 'stable' relationship and how do you know is going to last?

Custy.

You are a smart woman. I can't imagine you ever settling for a life without ambition for you and your children. You also went through your teenage pregnancy and motherhood with the support of a partner that you are still with . IIRC he's also hung like a horse? Not that that would make any difference.......

I hope the government introduces the subject of abortion to the curriculum. It is safe (certainly in the first trimester) and legal and a damn sight better, IMO - than inevitably having a baby for young teenagers with unplanned (and let's face it, most of them are) pregnancies.

From my professional experience of abortion clinics, the vast majority of teenagers having abortions were from 'middle class' families with mothers who wanted better for them than bringing up a baby alone.

There seem (certainly where I live) to be generations of families where very young mothers produce unplanned children who go on to produce unplanned children. I'm sure some of these families are happy but, IME, many don't seem to be and pretty soon mum loses interest and a very resentful young grandma has to step in.

How can this be a good thing?

Well of course it will vary depending upon individual circumstances. But surely it is reasonable to say the vast majority of girls under 18 do not have the maturity nor the financial stability to become mothers.

All things being equal I would say between 28 and 35 is the optimum age (though I was 33)

Part of Sex and relationship education is (should be) teaching children that their actions have consequences. That with these wonderful grown-up rights come stark grown-up responsibilities.

Anyway, it is perfectly reasonable to state that, in general, teenagers are neither emotionally mature nor financially stable enough to become parents.

Then teenagers to day need to grow up and get a backbone, for every young girl I know who is on the dole with a baby there's a young lad who is also on the dole without any good reason.
And plenty of them had private educations, didn't fancy A'levels, too much like hard work, got jobs, got bored and end up doing nothing at all.
That's a far bigger problem than teenage mums who we've always had.

There is nothing cool about living alone in a council flat with a screaming baby whilst all your mates are out having a fab, carefree evening.

Nor is it cool to think it's ok to continue to live at home and expect your parents to effectively take over the day to day slog of childcare.

Education, especially about contraception is IMO the big key here. Oh and more of the crying dools that we sometimes send home with the 15yr olds who say they want a baby.

But Myredcardigan (nice name),
I agree, it seems a good time between 28 and 35.
But how many of us were with the ideal man at that particular age?
Life isn't like that, you cant plan everything.
Thats why some have babies a bit early and some a bit late.

Imagine if you say : Oh i will have unprotected sex on 12 Febr 2012, thats when i ll be 31, perfect age'. Yes , but who knows you might be alone at that age, or with an arshole man, or ill or...

Katie, that's a separate but equally undesirable situation.

You obviously meet/know different teenagers to me. I don't know any teenagers who before having a baby are emotionally mature in the sense of feeling at ease with themself and no longer self-absorbed. Nor many who have their own home and enough money in the bank to support a child.

Oh I agree, Tiramissu. But TBH, I'd rather take my chances and wait than do it at 16 in case it doesn't happen.

Even if you'd said to me at that age that I can do it now or not at all, I'd probably have opted for not at all. In fact, I know I would.

Contraception and abortion.

Two things that need to be taught. If one fails, the other works.

And I hate the DM for trying to peddle the 'abortion causes long term emotional problems' argument. I'm sure it may do for women who go on, in later years, to have fertility problems - but for most young women, abortion provides an escape to pursue their lives.

If you asked me at 16 i would opt for not at all too.
But i am telling you i had a big panic (and regret) at 39!!

I meet these poor souls through the CAB when they come in for advice and all I can say is I've met some pathetic married women in their 30's who've sold their souls to the devil for a lifestyle they can't afford, who hardly look at their children, are worried about paying for a full time nursery place and frankly should never have had them.
And then I met teenage mums who are full of energy, determined to do twice the job they are expected to do because at every turn there are social workers, health visitors waiting for them to fail.
I don't want to financially support teenage mums any more than the next person but my god this government wastes money on worse things.
Cutting the benefits won't help, these girls know how to make a tenner last longer than I do, the flats they get put in are nicknamed sucide blocks because they are bloody depressing.
I think we have become far too dependent on benefits as a society, tax credits has made benefits seem mainstream and acceptable, where as a tax code would have the better solution to help working families and easier to adminster.
BUT now we are heading for a recession the immigrants and single mums are going to be blamed for basically everything, this is the start of things to come.

Oh I agree with most of what you say,katie.

I just think we should be making, 'not having a baby at 16' far more attractive. So instead of attacking teenage mums and cutting their benefits we should be teaching them that is really isn't a good lifestyle choice. Give them more aspirations; Uni, travel,career,disposible income etc

The vast majority of woman who chose these also go on to conceive at a far more stable time in their life.

I've read this thread over and over and i can't believe all of you can see from way up there on your high horses.

i got pregnant at 17. It was by accident. My mother was dissapointed for me at first and we did discuss an aborton. so much so that i was even at the clinic an hour before my op before i backed out.

Sex education was at primary school for me. it made no difference to how i felt about sex. i lost my virginity at 16 and i was on the pill and using condoms when my daughter was conceived. I am no longer with the father of my first daughter but i am now married and own my second home. i have never taken any pay outs from the goverment and have paid for everything myself.
Your saying that the majority of girls don't end up like me but how do you actually know? This is just media hype that you have all bought into.

You were on the pill and using condoms when you got pregnant?

yep and both failed. i have no idea how even to this day.

Condoms good for preventing std, obv. But amazing that you managed to get pregnant while using both.

Havnt read all of this thread but some of you have a really shitty attitude to young mums. I was in a longe term relationship all be it a god awful one. I fell pregnant at 18 and then again when I was 19. neither were planned but always wanted.
I am no longer with their dad. he was an asshole. but i dont agree with abortion so would never consider that.
I live off of my student loan. ex doesnt support us. I have a council flat and my rent is paid for me. I intend to be a tax payer once I finish my degree..... not all young mums are scum you know. Try walking down the street or do you weeks shopping with people tutting at you and discussing you like your not even there, its horrible! Im a human being. Im not the best mum in the world but i really do try. It doesnt help when people slag you off. sorry if my choice in life doesnt please you but my kids are the best things that ever happened to me and I thank god every day for them. society needs to accept that were not all like vicky pollard!

YANBU

Yes, we should discourage teenage pregnancy - though it begs the question: at what age does it become acceptable? - but if a teenager does become pregnant, continuing to stigmatize helps no-one, least of all the innocent child.

Having taught PSHE, and particularly sex education, for 10 years at secondary level and come across a number of teenage schoolgirls who have fallen pregnant, I just want to add my thoughts.

On the subject of sex education, I disagree that it is patronising to teenage mums. Obviously there are going to be teachers that allow their own prejudices and assumptions to affect the lesson they are delivering, but the majority just believe in giving pupils choice.

I am always careful to teach the emotional side of sex as well as the physical side. I try to instil in my pupils that they have a choice. I'm currently teaching my year 10s about contraception and the amount they don't know about any form of contraception is staggering! So last week I had 27 pupils all putting condoms onto fake willies. This week they've been researching other forms, including natural family planning and the withdrawal method, and all the pros and cons.

The most shocking thing is that out of 27 pupils in my group this year, only four had ever had a conversation about sex with their parents. I was appalled. They gain most of their 'information' from their friends. We know how damaging that can be.

On the subject of teenage mums in general, the majority that I have come across have not made the choice. They are scared and confused and frightened of their parents'/friends' reactions. They want to know about options, and I try to give them those without any kind of judgement or give them any fear of recrimination.

I am well aware of pupils that I have taught (not just in PSHE, but as an English teacher too) who have made the informed choice to have the baby, and have been jolly good mums (I've also seen a few that haven't been so good).

The most important thing is to give all pupils an education about sex and relationships so that when/if they find themselves in that position they can make a choice.

As for not supporting teenage mums financially, that's ridiculous. Why an earth not? We support other people financially for the decisions they make. We can't start dictating that only those who've made 'conventional' life choices should be given financial support. Why pay for heart surgery for someone who's smoked all their life, or surgery for someone injured in a sky diving accident? Not that I am comparing teenage pregnancy to heart disease...

What choices do you tell them they have?

And as for financial support, let their own families support them.

You say put education and choices in place though but what for ?
So they can work for minimum wage and never have enough money to leave home ? Never go out, never have nice clothes anyway no matter what they do.
Some girls aren't smart enough for Uni, plenty of those who currently go aren't smart enough for Uni, but that's a whole different discussion.
Seriously back in the day when an electrician and a shop girl could buy their own home for 3 times their salary you might have been able to argue it was worthwhile waiting, these days if I needed a roof over my head in my early/mid twenties and was earning £6.00 per hour in any big city pregnancy would seem a damn good financial and career move.
If you leave school at 16 and work in a factory or a call centre for 2 years, you'd be looking at having a baby as an attractive alternative too.

Tiramissu, very young mums also have complications as do older mums. I had my son at 36 after years of IF and IVF (all my fertility treatment paid for privately ), relatively difficult pregnancy but now I cost the state very little as my dh and I have made provision to raise our son and will continue to do so for the rest of his life. So no, I don't cost the state more than many teenage mums who rely on benefits to raise their children.

Not making any moral judgement just statement of fact - and I have worked with teenage mums too.

Sex education is vital and we should look at the Dutch model enviously - not just because of their teenage pg rates but because of the respect teenage boys have for girls. In sharp contrast to the attitudes displayed by many teenage boys in this country who see each girl as a 'notch on the bedpost'.