To think its unfair that my DD will probably not get into the state school I can see from my window

[dilemma456]

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exactly. the majority of church goers are middle class so if a school selects the majority of it's intake on being church goers then the majority of it's pupils will be middle class. middle class parents can afford more books, computers, tutoring and because they are well educated they want the same for their children so will support their education more. in turn this means that the majority of faith schools unfairly do better than non-denominational schools. if all schools were non-denominational schools those middle class church children that would usually be creamed off to go the church school will go to their local school making the local non church schools just as good as the faith schools. obviously these are generalisations but i hope you swim.

nappyaddict: "the majority of churchgoers are middle-class"

Arf. Have you ever been inside an inner-city catholic church?

I don't think she has

Not unless Exeter counts as an inner city It may not be representative of inner cities but statistics have found that overall the majority are middle class.

nappy-addict that may be true of the CofE but it certainly isn't true of the catholic church in this country. Many of the worshippers are of Irish decent or Polish migrants on minimum wage.

The Italians seem to do OK for themselves though

It is likely if they live in a middle class area the local non-faith school actually isn't going to be that bad anyway so I think a lot would use them rather than go private. A lot of middle class people can't actually afford to go private especially if they have more than 1 child.

As there would be more schools higher up in the league tables there wouldn't be as many people moving as near as possible to the only good school in the area making the catchment ridiculously small. There would be more choice of good schools so people wouldn't feel the need to move.

Well here in London about 30% of the congregation are white, even interpreting 'white' generously.

Of the kids in dd1's primary school class, about 4 were middleclass, if you take that to mean parents educated to degree level. If you take it to include successful builders or people with secure but low-paid jobs such as nursing, that increases to about 10.

Another 10 or so were from families where the parents had respectable but definitely not m/c jobs eg. working on the checkouts in Sainsburys, behind the counter at the postoffice, building jobs or driving a minicab etc.

The remaining 10 were on benefits, of whom about 4 or 5 were in seriously difficult circs (various combinations of parents in prison, alcoholism, domestic violence, parents with learning difficulties etc).

Drop in on a family Mass in a non-desirable part of town even in Exeter sometime and you will be surprised. Ditto if you stand outside a catholic primary school in a non-smart part of town at chucking out time.

I was referring to anglican churches when I said the majority of church goers are middle class. But you can't very well say let's ban all the c of e churches but keep the r.c. ones.

schools not churches.

Why not - they are the ones being elitist after all. Why punish catholics for something someone else does?

There are CoE schools in here in Hackney which are 90% non-white -- lots of african families attend churches which are vaguely affiliated to the C0E.

There is one notorious C of E school in an affluent part of a neighbouring borough which fits all the newspaper cliches about schools covertly selecting their pupils though tbh a lot of non-white, non m/c families probably look at the school and think 'sod that for a laugh'. But they are the exception locally most of the local Cof E schools are at least averagely rough, and some are probably more so than comparable non-church schools.

It all depends on the demographics of the local area and on what the other options are.

The phenomenon of pushy m/c families targetting a particular school by whatever means necessary, whether it be church attendance or acquiring a 500K mortgage is not just a church schools problem.

frogs - you're right. it depends on whether the particular school does much selecting of it's intake. for exmaple nolonger's doesn't seem to which is great but unfortunately a vast majority of them do.

frogs do the church schools in your area do better or worse than the non-church schools (except for the notorious one)

Spread pretty evenly, I'd say.

Lauriston is the 'desirable' non-church primary that people move into the area for. It's right by leafy Victoria Park. St Mathias otoh is in a v. non-desirable area and has an intake that is probably best characterised as 'rough'. The same is probably true of all the CE schools in that table, and of all but one of the RC schools as well.

Similar picture in neighbouring borough, with one or two notable exceptions. The top performing RC school in this table has a v. mixed intake, it's not a m/c area, but concentrate v. v. heavily on achieving those SATS scores. The most desirable RC schools are some way down this list, and even they are still very very far from being a m/c club. One or two of the CE schools are sought-after (spot 'em), but most of the other CE schools are considered less 'desirable' than the neighbouring non-church schools.

Frogs - i suppose it depends on whether they are VC or VA schools aswell. cos VC faith schools in a rough area aren't going to be desirable to a lot of people cos the admissions procedure will go on distance (ie lots of pupils from a rough area). however VA schools can place distance last on their admissions priority list. this is how it works in one school by me:

1. Baptised Catholic children who are in the care

of the local authority (looked-after children) or provided with accommodation by them (e.g. children with foster parents) (Section 22 of the Children Act 1989).

1. Baptised Catholic children (see note 2 below)

living within the Parish with a brother or sister (see Note 3) in school at the time of admission.

1. Baptised Catholic children living within the Parish.
2. Baptised Catholic children living outside the

Parish with a brother or sister in school at the time of admission.

1. Baptised Catholic children living outside the

Parish.

1. Non-Catholic children who are in the care of

the local authority (looked-after children) or provided with accommodation by them (e.g. children with foster parents) (Section 22 of the Children Act 1989).

1. Non-Catholic children who have a brother or a

sister in the school at the time of admission.

1. Non-Catholic children.

If there is over-subscription within a category, the
governors will give priority to children living closest to
the school determined by shortest straight line in
distance measured from the front door of the school to
the home address.

However it doesn't mention how much church involvement you have to have. As long as you can wangle a bit of church involvement you are in. So a child who goes to church once a month who is middle class might would probably get in over a child who goes to church every week who lives in a rough area.

I think they're all VA schools, nappy. VC schools are a bit of rare bird in London.

I think most of the RC schools in those lists would only bring distance into play after all the other factors. I don't think class comes into it, Ime -- there are lots of very devout west african, irish and vietnamese families in our parish, and they get into the schools ahead of m/c kids who attend once a month or less often.

In practice there seems to be a code in priests' reference which evidences the amount of commitment the families put in. iirc ours used to say things like: 'this family are known/well known/very well known to me, their commitment to the church involves x y and z and I would recommend/strongly recommend/very strongly recommend admission to the school.'

I agree that the potential for fiddling the system is there, but ime, certainly in the catholic parishes I'm familiar with, this is very much not what takes place. On the contrary, there are kids from catholic families whose parents don't actually attend church, but where the priest will recommend admission 'for pastoral reasons' which translates pretty much as 'this child has so many odds stacked against them that we should give them a chance'. That's how the kids whose families are so chaotic that they could never get it together to attend church manage to get into the schools.

i suppose in London there are going to be lots of church goers cos there are so many people so no need to fiddle the system.

my DD got into our fantastic, local, state, catholic primary this year.

however, being Catholic, we were actually excluded from the other 2 schools in walking distance which are both CofE (and just as good, one of them is top of the borough league tables).

I can totally understand the bitterness towards faith schools tbh. However if you want to go to them, get christened, go to church and go. If you are Catholic/Jewish/Muslim etc then you have already made your choice and have little chance of getting in btw. You can't suddenly un-baptise yourself, become CofE and attend a different Church.

And why are church schools so good? I think it's because the parents are 110% behind them. They have to bust themselves to get a place in the first instance, then they have to contribute significantly to school funds (Church schools get less funding) and general demands on parents for time/support seem geniuinely higher ime.

nappyaddict i don't understand how you have summised
"So a child who goes to church once a month who is middle class might would probably get in over a child who goes to church every week who lives in a rough area"

what's the area got to do with it?

if it is a rough area then i bet it is easier to get into the church school as there will be fewer middle class families vying for the church places.

cos the school selects them.

well how does the school select them?
interview - no.

the priest? i very much doubt the priest selects the middle classes.

The governors choose who gets in not the priest.