To think its unfair that my DD will probably not get into the state school I can see from my window

[dilemma456]

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The school closest to my house is CofE and gives priority to worshippers at a particular church, nearby churches, and then to followers of ANY religion. So children of atheists/agnostics/CofE believers who don't go to church regularly are right at the back of the queue, behind followers of completely different religions that believe completely different things and certainly do not have a Christian ethos.

Where's the sense in that?

(Mind you, talking about schools playing dirty, ds's non-denominational very good primary sends out letters to new parents suggesting they set up a regular direct debit to the PTA. Oh, how we laughed...)

I'm all in favour of children being taught about religion, and particularly Christianity, as it has shaped the history and culture of this country and Europe. But not being taught that Christianity or any other religion is The Truth - that's a matter for parents.

Ok SOME comments on here are rubbish, My dd goes to a church school and I worked in a different church school.

The church school I worked in is 75% muslim, they teach about ALL religions. It is a school with outstanding ofsted. Do you realise that only 3 children applied for reception on the basis that they were regular church attenders.

The school that dd is in a very religious school, she loves the faith side of it, loves the singing in assembley, the prayers etc, however this week they celebrated Dwali (sp?) at school and had a special lunch.
In dds class there are muslim/jewish/christian and athiest children so I really dont get this keeping them seperate and causing divisions rubbish!

The people complaining about faith schools seem to be mostly those who dont use them and tbh its coming across a bit like "well if I cant have it why should you?"
Well thats like me saying oh I want to aboloish all the private schools because I cant access them.

No I am complaining purely because they are divisive.

As said early DSS went to a catholic school which was 80% black or mixed race children (black and white mix) next door literally with a school that had 75% Asian children.

Then other percentages at both schools was white.

splits a community in two if you ask me.

I don't have the time to read the whole thread, but having read the opening, just wanted to say that I agree with dilemma456 completely - in fact, I am in the same position. The school which is second closest to me is very good and it is RC. I would love my DD to go there. In fact, I was brought up as RC, and my DD has been baptised and I would like her to learn about the bible etc. But because I only go to church a few times a year, I know for a fact that my DD will never get a place in that school. There is no choice when it comes to education - it's a lottery.

I agree nolongeraworriedmummy. I sent my dcs to a Catholic school because I wanted the best education I could realistically achieve for them. Not just accademically either. I wanted the discipline, moral values, etc. too. That was simply not apparant in the other schools in my area. I don't understand why non faith schools don't seem able to achieve the same levels of respect and discipline. Instead of knocking successful schools people should be questioning why non faith schools in general don't perform as well

kiddiz - very good point

though I disagree with faith schools I have to agree with you there.

Actually despite what someone else said there is a uk state funded Hindu school

Noonki I didnt mean you, but my experience of school is they are diversly and religion/non religion mixed. Now the state school not far away that is a non church school 100% white despite being in a multicultiral city, now thats a different matter, you know why? because its a outstanding school all the middle class parents have moved in the streets nearest to the school, whats the difference?

The thing is most Church schools round here do amazingly well compared to the none church schools, why is that? (genuine question) If its because of the funding it gets from the church then when you remove that funding surely it will become the same level as the non church schools, then people wont want their kids to go then.

DDs school a few years ago was poor achieving and poor ofsted and no one wanted to know but the people with Christian kids who wanted a Christian education for their children still put them there and the none Christian children as a majority went to a good achieving school nearby, Dds school was nearly shut because of low numbers. The church gave extra funding to help them get it up to standard and extra resources and now its outstanding and guess what, all these local people who chose not to send their children to the crappy church school are now complaining that its full this year and they cant get new children in.

I think they don't perform so well because the parents have had to jump through hoops to get to the faith school and so are going to be supportive of the school.

I know some will say it's because they select their pupils but that is most certainly not the case in the schools my dcs attended and still attend. They do select on religion but there are no selection criteria based on ability. They have to follow their published admissions criteria. If they were to offer places based on accademic ability at the expense of children in a higher catagory as published in their admissions procedure then those children could challenge the decision on appeal as it would be illegal to do so.

Maybe some areas are different to mine then, the school I worked in actually had 3 Christian Children in the class 12 Muslim 1 Hindu and the rest athiest. It was a good school with good results.

DDs new school (she started a few weeks ago in yr1) is outstanding ofsted, outstanding results, top school in area etc. I walked into school 3 weeks ago, asked if there were any places and dd started a week later, I wasnt even asked my religion until AFTER dd was offered a place.

Abbey I didn't jump through hoops to get my dcs into their schools but I guess that's not the case for everyone. That said I am very supportive of my children's education which, while we would hope was the case for all children, sadly isn't the case for some.

DDs school is definatly not selected on academic merit either for admission nor background and job, it is in an area of extreme social depravation and poverty, most of the children start school WELL below the national average. It is on the edge of a very rough estate and gets a lot of its pupils from that estate, a large majority of parents are those with no or few academic qualifications.

heck "I" need to go back to school, just read my posts back and the spelling and grammar is awful!

I didn't jump through any hoops either and am always supportive-I just think that where parents have jumped through hoops to get into the school of their choice they are going to be supportive.

For example if they go to a Cof E school and go to church once a term then parents can't moan. If it is a non denominational school, parents who didn't realise that there would be a strong Christian bias are going to moan.

some schools are trying to select their pupils though even though it isn't legal. did no one see this thread?

kiddiz in my local authority the top ten performing state secondary schools are non-faith schools. Of the poorest performing 10 schools 3 are faith schools- so I do not see how you can say that faith schools are the best in terms of performance- that is not the universal case by any means.
And of course, we all know non-christians have no moral values...

nolongerworried That hindu school opened this term and is only in temporary accommodation, so previously there were no state-funded hindu schools which is what I stated- there certainly aren't any figures available for it in terms of admissions and performance.
You also state that in your dd's class there are children who are muslim, atheist, as well as christian- yes that is one school though.
The CE primary closest to me (300 yards away)- it is not representative of the community it is located in in any way whatsoever-
In our authority, 16% of children are Pakistani- at this school 0%. LA- 7% Indian- the school- 0.5%, LA- 4% Bangladeshi, School- 0%, LA 12% African-Caribbean, School- 3%.
In our authority, 34% of children are eligible for free school meals- at the school only 1% are.
My point is (yawn, sorry) that this school is not inclusive, and does not represent the local community.
I know that they select covertly- it is no secret. This is backed up statistically by the fact that at this school only 1% of pupils have a statement of SEN- as opposed to 3.4% for our authority. Similarly, there are no children on SA+ (school action plus) whereas the aithority has 7.2% on SA+. The school has 4% on School Action (SA) as opposed to the LA almost 13%.
They are the highest performing primary in the authority at KS2, however their value-added score is pretty mediocre compared with other schools in our authority- because children are from well-educated m/c backgrounds and start school well- prepared for education. That is certainly not representative of the area it is located in as a whole.

Nappy...I can only speak of my experience of what I know to be true of the schools attended by my dcs. Like nolongeraworriedmummy my dc's primary and secondary schools do not give preference to accademically gifted children and, like her dd's school, when the children start in foundation one the majority are under achieving yet by year six it is one of the best primaries in the city.
If you can prove that a school has offered a child a place based on accademic ability who wouldn't have got in if they had followed their published admissions criteria then you can challenge the decision. Schools have to follow their own admissions criteria. That said I'm not doubting you when you say it goes on ...It's just not my experience of faith schools.

EachPeachPearMum. I was speaking from my experience of faith and non faith schools in my area. I visited many when considering schools for my dcs. And the levels of discipline and respect were higher in the faith schools imo. And I never said non-christians have no morals. Fwiw I am not a practicing christian myself so you probably think I'm a hypocite too.
While the faith schools in your area may not be the best performing that is not universal either. They are in my area and also in the op's it would appear.

I still maintain that we should be more concerned with looking at why some schools perform better than others regardless of whether or not they are faith schools.

Actually kiddiz the OP lives in the same authority as me!
I am of course speaking from my experience of faith and non-faith schools in my area too. Areas differ.

As to whether you're a hypocrite- well- if you attended church and had your children baptised to get into the school and do not believe, then yes, I would think that... however if you applied as living in the area but non-christians, then of course no, I do not think that. You are free to choose the school you wish for your children- it is no concern of mine.

What my objection is- is state funding of faith schools that select according to faith. If there is an open admissions policy that is adhered to, and it is first come, first served, that is fine- it is not discriminatory.

Each Peach

I think if you were to speak to my C of E vicar he would welcome anyone into Church whether they believed or not. He would also encourage everyone to have their child baptised...it is then up to the child whether they want to get confirmed later on.

Therefore I do not think people are hypocrites if they attend church and don't believe.....although I don't think its fair if people go to church to get their children in to school and then cease to attend church.

Each peach...you say we are free to choose the school we want for our children and yet earlier in this thread you have said:

"Miffy - if you want your child to worship daily- they should do that in their own time.
Singing hymns and praying to God have no place in education. Education is about learning- literacy, numeracy, and other subjects. When children are leaving primary school unable to functionally read- why are they wasting time in worship when they could be having literacy catch-up?"

This maybe your opinion but I completely disagree. My DCs c of e primary has extremely high sats results (not that I'm in favour of league tables) so the children have obviously learned to read and write whilst at the same time benefitting from learning in a caring environment. I have very happy memories of school assemblies at primary school (VC not church school) and private secondary and am pleased that my child is able to enjoy singing hymns, saying prayers, grace at lunch etc. As it happens we are church goers but I'm sure many families at the School are not but are happy for their children to benefit from a C of E school.

For those who do not want such a strong church ethos there are other good schools nearby so everyone in my area can choose a school that they feel happy with. If all you want is for your children to learn to read and write why don't you home educate? You don't seem to value the sense of community of Schools.

I can not see that attending a faith school would stop anyone learning to read and write. I expect the reasons some children have poor numeracy and literacy are either due to special educational needs, poor teaching, lack of English as a first language, class sizes being too big and there being too many children who struggle academically in a particular school..probably other reasons too.

kiddiz - they are not necessarily selecting academically. if you read the thread and article they are asking parents for money to the PTA, asking for voluntrary work from parents, sneakily interviewing children and parents etc.

That maybe so nappy but if they are giving a child a place at their school at the expense of a child in a higher admissions catagory based on their schools published admissions criteria, then that decision can be challenged. Schools are obliged to publish the criteria they use when allocating places and at my dd's school they publish figures showing how many children were admitted under each catagory too. So if you see that there were places given in a lower catagory than that of your child and your child has been refused a place then you can challenge the decision. They have to have an independant appeals procedure to allow parents to challenge unfairly allocated places. They do not, however, allow you to challenge the decision if they have applied their admissions procedures fairly but you just don't agree.