To think its unfair that my DD will probably not get into the state school I can see from my window

[dilemma456]

Message withdrawn

Eh?

kiddiz - but most people wouldn't know if someone less worthy of the place had got it would they. most people just accept whatever the decision is and go elsewhere thinking they weren't high up enough on the admissions criteria.

EachPeachPearMum was also talking from my experience of the three church schools I had experience of rather than ALL the church schools in Britain.

But like I said before the local none church school isnt representative of its community either. The local community in the schools catchment is socially very mixed, the school isnt. It has mainly upper middle class in it who have moved to the nearest streets to it purposely for the school.

Miffy of course your vicar welcomes people into his church with open arms, non-believers or not- 1) that is true Christianity, and 2) the CofE is on it's knees in terms of membership and extemely worried about it's future at the moment. I would be very worried if he encouraged people who didn't believe to have their children baptised though - baptising a child is making a promise to raise them in the doctrines of Jesus Christ, in a Christian home, and to begin their journey in a life of faith. The ceremony requires the parents to turn to Christ, and accept him as their saviour. How can non-believers validly make those commitments and promises?

It isn't hypocritical to attend church if you don't believe! I haven't said that- how else can non-believers learn of the doctrines of the Church in the first instance? But yes, attendance merely to acquire a school place is extremely hypocritical, and morally wrong as it prevents a child of true believers from getting a place potentially.

Re worship in schools- of course it is my opinion that it has no place in schools- but I find it extremely offensive that my children should be taught to pray to a mythical deity as FACT as a matter of course!
Imagine if children were taught the tenets of Wicca as FACT in your school? How would you feel as a Christian? I just feel that children are too young to distinguish when they are taught things by teachers who they look up to - they accept things as face value - Oh yes- God sent a Rainbow as a sign, Only God can create life etc etc - yes you believe that, and an ever decreasing small section of society believe that, but I do not, and I want my children to be presented with all sides of an argument rather than just one, particularly when it is one that I do not subscribe to.

I do believe community is a very important part of school life, but in most of the world, community ties are very strong, and they are not actually formed around a common belief in Christianity! China for example has some of the strongest familial and comunity ties, however probably 0.8 billion Chinese have probably never heard any of the teachings of Jesus Christ, I am sure.

I am saddened that many believers (of many faiths) believe that non-believers are that way through ignorance- I am not a non-believer in Christianity through lack of knowledge- far from it. There is also a tendency to believe that ones own chosen religion is the true one, the only way- well you just have to consider how many religions and faiths there are to see that that patently canot be the case.

"I don't understand why non faith schools don't seem able to achieve the same levels of respect and discipline. Instead of knocking successful schools people should be questioning why non faith schools in general don't perform as well"

Kiddiz - as I said, it is because non-denominational schools cannot select their pupils.

I linked earlier to a LSE report which shows that faith schools do better because they select, and not because they are religious.

That is why the admissions policies of faith schools are unfair.

I can see EPPM's point. If you don't believe in Christianity then why should your taxes go towards upkeeping churhces and to CofE or R.C. schools?

Each Peach - You don't know whether I believe or not - its none of your business! . I do not mind what you believe in or not as it is a personal and private matter.

I have merely stated that I like Church Schools and am happy that my DS is being educated in a C of E School.

I hope I am correct in thinking that the Church of England would be happy to welcome every baby for baptism whether or not the parents believe..I think they would prefer the Godparents to be baptised and ideally confirmed but I don't think it is insisted upon...I have a relative who is not baptised but is a Godparent. I would imagine that in any C of E congregation there are those who believe, those who are not sure if they believe or not, and maybe some who don't believe but just like to go to Church....I hope that they are all welcome!

My impression of the Catholic Church is that it is much stricter on such matters! (but I may be wrong)

However I don't know what the official Church of England position is on the above..my comments are based on my understanding of the situation and may be wrong....maybe there is a Vicar on Mumsnet who can clarify the C of E position on baptism etc!

I certainly do not believe that there is one religion that is true or above others..I'm happy for there to be Schools for all faiths in this country.

I don't mind if you don't want to send your children to a Church School. However, why are you trying to deny parents who do want a Church School a choice?

You seem to quickly jump to a lot of conclusions...when have I said you are ignorant..?

Nappyaddict...it does not cost the government any more per head to educate our DCs in a Church School than a non church school. If church schools didn't exist the taxpayer would be no better off, in fact he/she would be worse off because the Church contribution to Church Schools would be lost. There are also many religious Schools in the Independent Sector who receive no money from the taxpayer (Quaker schools, some Catholic Schools etc.)

As a taxpayer one has to put up with the fact that your money isn't always spent exactly as you would like...did you want your money spent on the Iraq war?

The only way I can imagine a non-baptised Godparent would get a vicar to agree to that was by merely not mentioning that they weren't baptised. When DS was baptised the vicar never asked if the godparents were but I brought it up and said would it be possible to have my best friend who wasn't baptised and he said no. If I hadn't said anything I quite easily could have had her but it would have felt wrong lying by omission to the Church.

The taxpayer would be better off cos there would be more schools that their child had a good chance of getting into. In my village there are 4 schools. 2 of those are faith schools. They are all notoriously difficult to get into despite just living around the corner. If those 2 faith schools were non-denominational schools children would have a much better chance of getting into a school in the village rather than having to travel to the next village.

Yes, and when we were looking at houses to buy there was one village which had only one primary school - a faith school where the admissions policy was to admit children from outside the village who attended church before it would admit children in the village who did not attend church. That means you would have to take your children to another village to school, even though there was a state school in your own village. I don't suppose the church would be willing to provide the transport, either. And what about people who don't have their own transport for that? I honestly believe you are staring to interfere with people's rights at that point.

I don't really have a problem with religious people wanting to use faith schools. I have a problem with them refusing to let in other local children when oversubscribed, or indeed favouring non-local children over local children. That's what private schools do, and the taxpayer has no business supporting that.

I do, however, believe that faith and education should be kept separate. Someone here said they want their children to worship at school. Why? Do you insist they worship in the doctor's surgery, or in the council-run library or leisure centre? Why do they have to do it in school? No-one is stopping you attending church, or discussing your faith at home. And like someone else said, what if you want your child to do ballet, or study latin every day? You go private, don't you?

This is not true as some of the less well off who currently have church letters would not get in due not being wealthy enough to live near a good school.

Overall the educational budget per head would be lower as the Church money would be lost from the State System.

It sounds as though everyone in your village has a good choice at the moment..those who want faith schools have two options those who don't have two options.

Miffy -you are jumping to conclusions! I did not say you think I am ignorant! I am sorry if you are affronted by me calling you a Christian- you gave the impression that you are a Christian- you described yourself as a churchgoer, mentioned 'your' C of E vicar and said that you want your children to worship daily- forgive me, but why would you want/say those things unless you were a Christian?

I do find it difficult to believe that the church would baptise a child in the knowledge that their parents are lying during the ceremony- ie a child of non-believers. How can a non-believer make a promise to commit to Christ if they do not believe in his power? I cannot believe that a vicar would knowingly allow parents to make a commitment and a promise that they do not understand, and have no chance of keeping.

nappy I'm not sure that tax revenue contributes to upkeep of churches other than national monuments such as cathedrals, abbeys etc, which is correct in that they constitute our nations spiritual and architectural heritage.

But Miffy, if your analysis was correct, it would be reflected in the numbers of poorer people attending church schools. The last time figures were done (2002), they showed that on average, 20% of pupils attending non-denominational schools were entitled to free school dinners, whereas only 10% of those at faith schools were. This shows that faith schools are not more accessible to children from poor families - the reverse, in fact. I wish they would update this research, so we could see what it's like now.

But miffy I am sure that 50% of nappy's village are not christian- highly unlikely in this day and age, so it isn't really equal choice in that case, is it?

And, sorry, Miffy - those in nappy's village who attend church actually have a choice of four schools, while everyone else in practice has a choice of two schools. That is unfair.

I agree with Dollius' message (top)...in an oversubscribed School in a village with one School people from the village should have priority.

The Church Schools round here do not have this policy..local people have preference.

I went round a lovely village school (not c of e) but knew my DS would have no chance of getting in as villagers had priority and I had no problem with that.

But faith schools are allowed to do that and some do overstep the mark in this way. And it's not really enough to just say "well, they shouldn't really do that, and most don't". The point is that they can if they wish. Their ability to select pupils is unfair and should be curtailed or stopped altogether.

i remember reading somewhere that the Church of England had asked for £350 million from the government for the upkeep of their churches despite having £5 billion in assets. I read that as meaning churches in general but i suppose it could have meant cathedrals or abbeys.

dollius "as I said, it is because non-denominational schools cannot select their pupils."

You are generalising, my dds school is an outstanding ofsted, top state achieving church school that takes 99% of its intake from the towns two roughest council estates with low income, low achieving, low qualified parents.

actually thinking about it dds school changed from a crap one to a outstanding one when the church funded an extra teacher per class so two in a class.

exactly and that is unfair. non-denominational schools should have the same funding as faith ones. it is discriminatory to those that do not believe in Christianity.

But how many voluntary aided schools are there actually now anyway? Most here have been turned into community schools or voluntary controlled church schools where admission is controlled by the lea, I cant get my dd into the voluntary controlled church school round the corner dispite being from the church attached. So is that not discriminatory?

but nappy mainly none Christians do use the school, and the Church funded it as a private donation by fund raising that people who attended the church paid for or parents of those using the school paid for so why the hell isnt it fair? It hasnt come from your taxes or anything like that so why does it matter? Thats like someone at your school deciding to donate money or fundraise to fund a project and another school saying its not fair, I dont get it.

Its like I said what annoys me most is that wouldnt give a shit if we had our church schools if Church schools achieved poorly, Ive seen it over and over again with the ones here that are crap, all these people who were previously complaining about wanting entry can get in now school is poor achieving and do they hell as want to now and yet they desperatley wanted it because it was so near to where they lived before.

Its back to what I said before, well they shouldnt be able to have it because I cant.

AND as I have said before we walked into dds outstanding school three weeks ago into a place without a mention of what religion I was, and as far as I am aware there are also places in the other oustanding church school down the road.

actually I have a genuine question, what would you ( as in those who want to shut church schools not a particular person) achieve from my dds church school being closed?

You would disrupt the learning of all those children in all those church schools across the country purely because you dont like or agree with a school that you dont use?