Page 14 | To think its unfair that my DD will probably not get into the state school I can see from my window

cory · 23/10/2008 14:59

Anna8888 on Thu 23-Oct-08 14:26:21
"nappyaddict - no, secular chools do not teach RE. They are in theory going to start teaching a teensy-weensy little bit about different religions in history-geography classes.

Secular means secular. No Christmas tree, no party, no decorations... "

Anna, that depends on the country. The Swedish state and church have been separated for decades, and schools are not supposed to propagate any one faith but teach about them in RE in the same way as they teach about geography or history. But they are certainly not banned from having Christmas trees at school.

I had wonderful RE lessons at my Swedish secondary, giving me real insights into e.g. the role of prayer and fasting in Islam and how people feel about it. It was only afterwards that I found out that my teacher was in fact a devout Catholic. I am sure he did not feel a hypocrite because he was teaching us understanding and respect for others.

dollius · 23/10/2008 15:05

jammi - I am not sure you are correct in your analysis there.

Certainly a research report into this issue by the London School of Economics disagrees with you. That found that faith schools often do better because they are allowed to select pupils and not because they are religious.

Here is the link: www.lse.ac.uk/collections/pressAndInformationOffice/newsAndEvents/archives/2006/FaithPrimarySchools. htm.

As I understand it, if a faith school receives 35% funding from a church, then the funding required from the state is lower - 65%. It does not actually have more money than other schools. But this is generally for the buildings maintenance only and teachers and other resources are still 100% funded by the state. Even if a school is 35% funded overall by the church, why is its ability to select not limited to 35% of its places?

I think that the public purse rather depends on this funding from religious groups - small as it may be - as it reduces its budget overall. Therefor the state is reluctant to challenge the church's demand to be able to select pupils. You could argue, if you were being difficult I suppose, that the church is rather holding the taxpayer to ransom.

nappyaddict · 23/10/2008 15:07

i wasnt even aware secular schools existed in the UK!

Original poster

dilemma456 · 23/10/2008 15:31

Message withdrawn

OP posts:

EachPeachPearMum · 23/10/2008 16:06

nappyaddict thats the point- secular schools do not exist in the UK

miffy I am curious as to why you think CE schools do not discriminate on grounds of religious activity for admissions? Maybe in your authority they do not, but in mine, they certainly do. I can cut and paste the admissions criteria if you so wish!

nappyaddict · 23/10/2008 16:15

EPPM - sorry i thought in your post you meant there just wasn't a good one near you - that's why i got a bit confused. why do you want a secular school? what's wrong with a non-denominational school?

ladyconstancekeeble · 23/10/2008 16:16

There is a difference in admission criteria for voluntary aided and voluntary controlled schools. One part funds buildings maintenance etc and sets its own admissions criteria, the other has church people on the board of governors but uses LA admissions criteria ie distance, siblings but not faith.

kiddiz · 23/10/2008 16:16

"Non Catholics are paying taxes for a school they are not allowed to go to." err... not in my case. We aren't Catholic but my dcs went to both Catholic Primarys and Catholic High Schools. We aren't rich and my dcs were not selected on ability either. Nor did I attend church specifically to get my dcs in to the school.

EachPeachPearMum · 23/10/2008 16:17

Non-denominational schools still have to have a daily act of collective worship which is christian in character.
Why? Because there is no separation of church and state in theis country, which I think is wrong.

nappyaddict · 23/10/2008 16:18

But don't you think children should learn about religion at school?

EachPeachPearMum · 23/10/2008 16:21

Yes, absolutely - through the medium of RE- where all major religions are given equal time and weight and consideration.
Worship impplies a deity.

EachPeachPearMum · 23/10/2008 16:26

Oh and Anna we do have one curriculum for the whole country- and a bl**dy disaster it is too!

kiddiz · 23/10/2008 16:31

Sycamoretree...I'm just catching up with this thread but Anna is correct. All state schools are required by law to have an act of collective worship either weekly or daily. I can't remember which. There was a thread on here a while back where someone was complaining about assemblies at their dc's non faith school. Several teachers posted saying they were required to do so. One said her school had been pulled up on an ofsted report for not doing so.

pingping · 23/10/2008 16:33

EachPeachPearMum I too think that Curriculum is a disaster but I also think it depends on the way its taught!!!

Maybe all teachers should spend the 6weeks they have off during the school Holiday's in Training

Miffyinsurrey · 23/10/2008 16:36

I don't just want my children to learn religion through RE, I want them to participate in a daily assembly where they sing hymns and pray for other people. At my DS C of E school they also say grace at lunch and a prayer at the end of the day.
Maybe some people wouldn't like this for their DC in which case in my town they could choose a normal non c of e primary school.

If all primaries were made secular there would be the loss of church funding as many people have pointed out. You would also get more of the PC nonsense about not having a nativity play etc. Whilst all schools have to teach RE they don't all have assemblies..many schools (secondary) are too big for the whole school to fit in one hall and have a daily religious assembly which I think is sad.

Each Peach - the school my DS goes to has an admissions criteria which is 1. siblings, 2. anyone living in the parish i.e. nearby 3. church affiliation. There are other good primaries nearby...pros and cons with each school but I don't know of anyone who is unhappy with their childs school.

EachPeachPearMum · 23/10/2008 16:38

The issue I have with a national curriculum has nothing to do with actual delivery! That varies from teacher to teacher anyway.

It is more around the content, and the way schools forced to teach to the examinations in order to preserve their places in the performance tables, rather than actually teach children things that are relevant or interesting to them- and we wonder why so many teenagers hate school?

nappyaddict · 23/10/2008 16:56

EPPM - but Anna said secular schools didn't teach RE...

EachPeachPearMum · 23/10/2008 17:03

nappy in FRANCE they do not. (Anna is in Paris) In UK- there are no secular schools, and RE is a part of the NC, which I have no problem with. It is the daily act of collective worship I object to, along with discrimination at admission according to faith.

pingping · 23/10/2008 17:06

Well if all teachers were at the same level then you wouldnt have crap schools that people didnt want to send there kids to also you would not have this thread and so on

pingping · 23/10/2008 17:09

EachPeachPearMum ummmm if the children are Catholic then why can't they learn about there faith on a daily basis?

I know for a fact that when I was at school all the children that was not Catholic didnt have to go to confession etc and got an extra lesson so I dont know what the problem is. If Catholic schools started to take in Muslim children then the Muslim parents would then complain about what there children are being taught and how the school can't say merry Christmas as Muslims dont believe in Christmas etc so leave the faith schools to it

EachPeachPearMum · 23/10/2008 17:11

Miffy - if you want your child to worship daily- they should do that in their own time.
Singing hymns and praying to God have no place in education. Education is about learning- literacy, numeracy, and other subjects. When children are leaving primary school unable to functionally read- why are they wasting time in worship when they could be having literacy catch-up?

Your particular school does not discriminate against children living locally- which is commendable, however CE schools in my authority do- criteria are specifically priority for children who worship at the church (named) and whose vicar attests they are worshipers, children whose family is involved in the worship and work of any other christian church in ward, etc etc. In an inner city area, with a large population, a one-form intake school will always be over-subscribed.
There are certain areas where it is impossible to get into (any) schools within 2 or 3 miles of ones home, because there is so much pressure on school places. This is at primary!

elkiedee · 23/10/2008 17:14

I don't think schools should be given state funding and allowed to discriminate in favour of those who practice a particular religion, and also in favour of those who for a example a particular Anglican vicar or Catholic priest approves of. I've heard stories of schools where the priest only recommends pupils whose parents are married to each other. I feel it makes it easier for schools to select the parents and families they want and exclude others. So they can cream off pupils who are most likely to succeed, it's very self perpetuating.

EachPeachPearMum · 23/10/2008 17:19

pingping if you are catholic, then of course you may teach your child about your faith on a daily basis- in your own home.
I do not demand a school teach my children about DH's faith on a daily basis- if we want them to receive instruction in that- we teach them at home of course.
I want a school that instructs in ballet and music every day, and Latin weekly, but I don't see ay state funding for that.
4% of UK are Hindu- but there are no state-funded hindu schools.

I think from the opinions expressed on this thread people of faith seem terrified that if their children are not indoctrinated daily, there will no longer be any people of those faiths- surely these are the issues you should be tackling?

nappyaddict · 23/10/2008 17:35

EPPM - are there other countries where secular schools do teach RE then? If so I too would approve of that.

EachPeachPearMum · 23/10/2008 17:43

I do not know nappy I am only fount of all knowledge on English system I am afraid