To think its unfair that my DD will probably not get into the state school I can see from my window

[dilemma456]

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I don't agree with faith schools of any kind - I went to a non-faith state comprehensive secondary school with a good academic reputation and it was noticeable that which middle school pupils had been to in the previous few years made a huge difference to how they were streamed for academic attainment and potential for the future in our first few weeks (at 13). My middle school was quite oddly almost the only non-C of E school whose pupils did well in this situation. (Those at Catholic schools presumably continued in that system).

In some areas like mine there are apparently good Catholic schools and sink Catholic ones. The good ones involve recommendation from a priest and it's apparently quite hard for kids from eg single parent families (clearly not good enough Catholics!) to get in. While that may not be just about class it does reinforce differences between kids from different class/race backgrounds.

Will catch up on reading more of thread than op and first handful of responses later, must go do something else then do some WORK for once now.

Elkiedee - it appears you are saying the children from the C of E schools were doing well academically...so why would the country be better off without them?

miffy - like with all schools (as far as I know), the first criterion for the CofE school is children in social care. Second is attendance at their church. Good way to keep the numbers up on a Sunday morning

I've just had a look on my council website and of the six nearest primary schools to me, two are CofE, one is Jewish, one is Muslim and the remaining two are non-dom. So I'm effectively excluded from 80% of my local schools.

I put it all down to the Head and staff.
I supply teach.I can go to deprived schools with some dreadful home backgrounds, but the Head and staff are wonderful and doing a brilliant job and are very supportive. I don't go back to schools where I don't like the Head and staff and where they don't give support.
I am going to one this afternoon with a difficult class but I will have 2 TAs in there with specific children, but they also help generally. I will be able to teach-it won't be about crowd control.
If this Catholic school is good it is down to the Head, staff and ethos. Keep the same children and put in a different Head and staff and change the ethos and it won't be the same school-it might be better, it might be worse but it won't be the same.

You can be excluded from a lot of local schools if you can't afford to pay. You can be excluded from schools if they are selective and your DC doesn't pass a test.
There is never a choice of all schools.

Spicemonster - if you look at it the other way you have a choice of 4-6 schools (I don't know what the selection criteria are for muslim/jewish).

Why not go round the two c of e and the 2 non denominational and see which you like best.

If you like the C of E schools do you have a chance of getting in without going to church? If you don't why not send your children to Sunday School - it will be good for them and they will probably love it. Everybody has a chance to go to church whereas not everyone can afford a house in a good area so surely it is fairer to give people a chance to get in through a church affiliation.

I expect the Churches do want to keep their numbers up..I think it would be a good thing if more people went to church. In our parents generation many more people went to church and sunday school was a normal activity for the majority of the population. I really feel that the decline in society's moral values has something to do with the lack of church attendance, and a lack of a spiritual dimension in people's lives.

If the majority of people want faith schools abolished why are there so many people who want to send their children to them?
2 of my dcs went to Catholic primary and secondary schools (my eldest has sn and went to special schools which are a whole other minefield!!)We are not Catholic and initially chose the Catholic primary for ds2 because he had been to the independant playgroup attached to the school and had made friends there. Also it was literally 5 mins walk away.
We had few problems with admission to the schools even though they are over subscribed. DD has just started at secondary and her year has about 200 places per year. It had over 400 applications. DD is not Catholic but still got a place even though ds2 had left so the sibling criteria did not apply. The assumption is that those refused a place were not Catholic as they would have been in a higher admissions criteria than dd if they were. So there are clearly an awful lot of non catholic parents who want their children to attend the school for reasons other than it's religious ethos. What seriously needs to be addressed is why these schools perform better. Are all Catholics academic? I doubt it. Are all Catholics affluent? I can only speak from experience and that is certainly not the case with the schools attended by my dcs which have pupils representing a wide social spectrum. As others have said on here, it is this that should be causing us concern and not whether some schools are partly funded by the church. Which incidently could be argued to save the government and therefore the taxpayer money. The majority of children who attend state faith schools would still be in the state system were there no faith schools and instead of funding 90% of their education the taxpayer would have to fund 100%. I would want to know why faith schools are generally more successful and why these practices can not be applied to non faith schools.
The local non faith secondary school has a real problem with truancy...particularly in the afternoons. Yet they allow their pupils to leave the premises at lunchtime which therefore increases the likelyhood that they won't go back after lunch. DD's school does not allow them to leave. Seems like a no brainer to me! Except I suppose that if the pupils are on the premises they have to have someone there to supervise them.
As for seperating the church and the state I think that is unlikely to happen and it is going to take a lot more than posting on here to make that happen! Completely non religious state schools do not exist in this country as all schools are required to have an act of daily worship. You do however have the right to withdraw your children from this. I have said on a thread on here before that if I felt strongly about breaking the link between the Church and state education this is an action I would certainly take. If enough parents feel the same and did the same they would have so many pupils being withdrawn the state would have to take notice. I don't and I honestly don't think the majority of parents do either.

Sorry didn't realise till I posted that how long it was .
Feel free not to read it !!!!

Every 3 months or so there is a thread started by people who didn't realise that all state schools are Christian- they make the assumption that because they are not faith schools they have nothing to do with religion. The haven't taken into account that Cof E is the state religion. We are due for another one soon-probably as soon as they get caught up in Christmas.

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Yes I would bloss. The point I'm trying to make (and which some people on this thread seem to be either too obtuse or stupid to understand) is that I believe that all state schools should be equally accessible to all children, regardless of what faith their parents are into.

spicemonster - we are not stupid..we disagree with your anti faith school opinions...I am quite bright actually

SM you believe that all state schools should be equally accessible to all children.

I believe that faith schools shoud be allowed

Why does that make me stupid?

Erm, Anna, I don't think OUR local state school is CofE.

My daughter just came home from the nursery the other week having celebrated "happy Ede". It was her first encounter with religion, of ANY kind, as we ourselves do not believe in any kind of god. Christianity is by far the lowest percentage faith among the pupils. The idea that they all sing along to hymns like I did back in my primary school years, even though we were a non denominational school, is preposterous.

If you're going to post such sweeping statements you really need to get your facts straight.

You cannot disagree with the point that faith schools are discriminatory because it's true. So the only argument you all seem to be able to put forward is to try and suggest that the only reason I and the rest of the non-believers would like to get rid of them is that we're jealous because they are better schools. That is a weak argument as well you know. So you are being obtuse if you're not thick.

soultaken - obtuse or stupid. You chose to infer that the latter applies to you.

Well, my dh is reconnecting with his Catholic upbringing for reasons not entirely unrelated to the school at the top of the road.

I do think it's unfair though. I don't see why tax payers should have to cough up for schools they have no chance of their kids getting into UNLESS those schools are forced to take, say 50% of non Catholic children.

Hmmmm, I could have sworn obtuse meant the same as stupid.

But then again, maybe I'm stupid.

Oh hang on, yes of course I'm stupid, I support faith schools.

Ok so I am going to be very unpopular now but dd does not go to the nearest school to us but she goes to the nearest church school. Why? because I want her to have an education that includes integrated teaching of the religion that we both are. The church school that she goes to does that through assembleys and prayers ect, the none church school doesnt. Therefore I have picked dds school partially because it offers the Christian ethos that the other school didnt. Why then should someone who doesnt believe in that religion or ethos have more priority than my dd, if it was a poor attaining church school people wouldnt be interested.

Not having a go, its a genuine question.
If you arent bothered about religion then why not chose the nearest community school, I am just thinking of the school near where we used to live where all these parents applied for a place in a c of e school as Christians then opted out of RE altogether.

The faith schools do not discriminate because anyone can go to them if we are talking C of E.

Do you want to send your child to a faith school or not?

If the answer is yes then you must see the benefit of a faith school education. In which case why do you have a problem in going to church?

If you don't want a faith school why not send your DCs to one of the two non faith schools.

If one was to follow your argument and faith schools were abolished how do you think places would be allocated? the nearest children to the school going? And how would that be fair as of course the wealthy people would get the places thus discriminating against the poor.

How would the country's education system be better if faith schools were abolished? I have yet to hear any convincing arguments...

and fwiw all the voluntary aided schools I worked in and the one dd goes to take 15 children from the local community regardless of religion and 15 who are baptised and practising children who it is the nearest church school for them so we arent all taking up your dc places.

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I agree Miffy, abolishing faith schools will just discriminate against poor families by pushing up house prices near the best schools.

Blu's just posted this link on another thread - surprise, surprise, religious schools are among the worst offenders for covert selection.

So much for claims 'better' results are the result of ethos or moral education - it's all about bank balance.

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