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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think its unfair that my DD will probably not get into the state school I can see from my window

455 replies

dilemma456 · 22/10/2008 15:58

Message withdrawn

OP posts:
singersgirl · 22/10/2008 23:24

Oh, of course I think an atheists only school would be ridiculous. I was using it to illustrate my point, which I think is the same as Unquiet Dad's. I don't see why people should get more choice because of their credulity. That's all.

bloss · 22/10/2008 23:28

Message withdrawn

EachPeachPearMum · 22/10/2008 23:30

Thanks- have not heard phrase before, and couldn't work out a typo from that!
Yes- I am a dog with a bone
I would still argue against faith schools- as I said previously- in my particular authority, there are good performing and poor performing faith schools. In fact- at secondary level the best performing schools are non-faith- but of course you cannot attend them unless you live in an extremely expensive enclave.
So I can pay a fortune on a mortgage, or on school fees- I am thankful I have that choice, most people do not.
I am not ideologically committed to preventing others having a faith-based education- I just think they should pay for it, rather than having it funded through the state system. Why should I pay for children anywhere to be indoctrinated?

EachPeachPearMum · 22/10/2008 23:31

erm- NO- atheism isn't a faith LOL!

CoffeeCrazedMama · 22/10/2008 23:35

I'm rather terrified to dip my toe into a faith/secular schools debate , and haven't read all comments but has anyone pointed out that the reason most RC schools are where they are (in this case, nextdoor to the OP) is that many many years ago, the Church bought the land to build the schools. Subsequently, with changes to the education system, they have been subsumed into the State system with the land remaining church property.(The large number, that is - before you all start piling in to tell me of new built ones in your backyard!)

singersgirl · 22/10/2008 23:37

Well, no, it's not a 'faith'. It's an absence of 'faith'.

bloss · 22/10/2008 23:39

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bloss · 22/10/2008 23:40

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bloss · 22/10/2008 23:44

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EachPeachPearMum · 22/10/2008 23:50

bloss - where have I claimed to be heathen, or atheist for that matter?
I have not said what my own beliefs are, anywhere on this thread.
I am merely arguing that there should be a separation of education and religion, that I believe schools that discriminate on grounds of faith are wrong.
Atheism means 'godless'- many faiths are without gods- the major one being buddhism. Atheists are not a discrete group in the way catholics or baptists are.
Secularism is merely the belief that state and religion should be separate- there are christian, muslim, and non-believers who are secularists.

EachPeachPearMum · 22/10/2008 23:52

And I really must go to bed....

bloss · 23/10/2008 06:54

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Anna8888 · 23/10/2008 08:49

"The effects of these faith divisions are particularly dubious in a workplace environment."

Quattro - and why would these workplace faith divisions disappear if there were no longer faith schools?

Abolishing faith schools doesn't mean you abolish religious affiliation. The tribal instinct is human and humans will always seek to associate with those who have similar beliefs to themselves. Beliefs evolve over time; the tribal instinct doesn't. New tribes are formed...

Same old...

AbbeyA · 23/10/2008 09:02

In the case of the OP she wants the nearest school because it is a good school; she is upset because she thinks she should come at the top of the criteria, not way off the bottom. It ignores the fact that it is a good school because of the Head, staff and ethos. Change all that and you have a completely different school! She may then be top of the list for the school but it may no longer be a good school and she may not want it.
I wouldn't want a Catholic school, it doesn't mean that I would want to abolish them for everyone.

EachPeachPearMum · 23/10/2008 09:17

bloss I was trying to make the point that nowhere had I declared my own beliefs

Abbey yes- a good school is usually, but not always, down to the Head and Staff, indeed.
I think we concluded the OP was BU last night!

AbbeyA · 23/10/2008 09:44

I always lose track of any conclusions!
I always put a good school down to the Head and staff.

spicemonster · 23/10/2008 10:09

Of course that has a lot to do with it Abbey but CofE schools in inner city areas mean that they exclude large numbers of the immigrant population who don't tend to be of that faith. In my next nearest school, over 60% of the children don't speak any English when they start school. My next nearest alternative is a Jewish school. So we're stuffed basically.

Effectively the Jewish school and the CofE one are ensuring that the poorest people in the local population are excluded from their schools.

fabsmum · 23/10/2008 10:27

"The point is that there is underfunding, and objections to faith schools can be made on highly ideological grounds (parents should not be able to have their children educated in a particular faith), but otherwise make no sense."

No - that's simply not true.

What makes a school desirable (particularly with secondary schools) is not just good management and a stable staff, but the children and the parents use it.

The comprehensive where my daughter is likely to end up if she doesn't pass the entrance exams to the selective schools in the borough is actually quite well-managed and has a reasonably stable staff. However, nobody I know wants their children to go there because it is full of children from the most deprived and difficult parts of the borough. The selective system concentrates the most disadvantaged children into one place and this impacts on classroom management and the overall running of the school.

Secondary schools with very large numbers of children from disadvantaged backgrounds generally get worse results than schools who have a middle-class intake, no matter how well managed. They end up near the bottom of the local league tables and get into a spiral of self-perpetuating failure. It's very hard. They don't attract the children from motivated, educated families, who understandibly want their children to go somewhere where many children are achieving highly. They end up with disproportionate numbers of difficult children which puts huge pressure on the staff, which results in high staff turn-over, staff absence etc, which in turn damages the education of the children.

Miffyinsurrey · 23/10/2008 10:30

SM - these schools should take a proportion of local children as well as those who are of the faith in question. Are they really 100% C of E?

fabsmum · 23/10/2008 10:32

AbbeyA - "I always put a good school down to the Head and staff"

That's only half the story.

If large numbers of children in a school come from chaotic families where parents have themselves left education early and where there is a lack of aspiration and a culture of disrespect for authority then that school will be a difficult place to work, however talented and motivated the staff.

Teachers are only human. Trying to educate disaffected young people in large groups is very, very, very hard.

Anna8888 · 23/10/2008 11:02

Well, if my only choice were between a good Catholic school and a bad secular school, I know exactly where I would want my child to go to school and would do my utmost to ensure she did.

And I am an Anglican non-believer with a Jewish non-believing partner, both of us pretty anti-Catholic - but also both extremely pro-education.

My daughter is, in actual fact, in a secular bilingual French-English school that suits are needs extremely well. But the school didn't actually go so far as to move to our doorstep to suit us....

Anna8888 · 23/10/2008 11:03

our needs

Miffyinsurrey · 23/10/2008 11:05

I agree with the posts made by Fabsmum and Abbey A. As mentioned earlier my DS goes to a C of E school. The school is very successful and I think this is due to a good head, the Christian ethos and the fact that over 50% of the parents are well educated and committed to their children's education.

Whilst there are some very affluent families there are also children there from much poorer backgrounds, and a few who probably don't have English as a first language at home. Unfortunately the children in the latter groups do not appeared to be listened to with reading at home and encouraged enough...however the Schools results show that all the children do well by yr 6 irrespective of their background.

It appears that in inner cities the divide between the haves and have nots is too great. Rather than the stupid lottery system that is being introduced in some areas, the good schools should take a good number of children from the local catchment area and also a proportion of deprived children, and be rewarded with slightly smaller class sizes.

Peachy · 23/10/2008 11:08

I think it is very ridiculous that a child can't get into the local tax payer supported school

My kids attend church school (sort of, its confusing) but the school has a local catchement- tiny but it avoids this scenario.

I know hthere are sits where its ahrd, but imo no child should be forced to pass a taxpayer funded school on their way to another similar: its ridiculous

Anna8888 · 23/10/2008 11:09

"Rather than the stupid lottery system that is being introduced in some areas, the good schools should take a good number of children from the local catchment area and also a proportion of deprived children, and be rewarded with slightly smaller class sizes."

This happens at my stepsons' state school here in France, in very affluent Neuilly-sur-Seine.

It doesn't work. The children from deprived areas still don't make it.