To let my 3yo run around shouting in a church...

[alardi]

Obviously not during a service(!).

Here's the scene:
Fine medieval church in a small market town. Sign on church door that says "The church is open to all visitors". It's market day so many people popping in and out to see the architexture, buy a card, light a candle..

I go in with my 3yo DS who likes to run to the back the church, stopping to talk shout about things on the way, then run back to the front area (near the door), where the children's door is so that he can look at books, play with Noah's Ark toys there, etc. He tends to shout when he speaks at all, so from a stranger's perspective, you could say he's running and shouting...

As he runs back, a sour faced old bat old lady sitting in the pews, stands up and shrieks speaks sternly "Excuse me, this is not a playground!"

So I apologised and left...DS kept asking why we had to leave and I said it was because the miserable old hag old lady didn't like children.

But I haven't set foot in the church since, don't want to cause offense, can't get over the feeling that churches are really only for the old and solemn and miserable, not for lively young children.

Or was I outrageous to ever take my unruly DS in, especially as we are contented, resolute unbelievers? I just felt the church was part of DS's heritage and even if we are slack secularists humanists, I didn't want churches/religion to seem like a foreign culture to DC (hence why we used to visit the church fairly frequently).

I don't get this.

A church is not a playground. Its just not.

You say you were going in their as it is 'part of his heritage' so presumably you want him to learn about what the church is and why it is 'special'. He won't learn that if he's allowed to run around and shout in there!

I am firm atheist, but appreciate churches for the peace and architecture. DD comes to look around with me and I insist she behaves appropriately. If she doesn't, she has to leave. Simple as.

I'm not smug about it, there's nothing to be smug about DD is not an angel child, she is often very naughty! But in a place of worship she must either behave appropriately (as demonstrated by me) or leave.

YABU

Yes, I can generally shut DS up at a hundred paces with a ferocious look.

Unfotunately, the same technique does not work with DD though. More beatings needed, do you think?

Actually the side-effect of being a draconian parent in church is that they hate loathe and detest going there for an hour and having to be respectful and all that jazz.

cant you see that church for most people is for quiet reflection.maybe lady was trying for quiet time

you dont vknow her circumstances, or why she looked aghast and was stern. she is factually correct it isn't a playground

pick your venues for "running and shouting".not places of worship

It's unreasonable, whichever way you cut it. I get the sense that many people these days think that children shouldn't have to be quiet, because that's somehow supressing who they are or some such rot. Children should learn to have quiet times themselves, and should learn to respect other people's quiet times, and they should start learning that when they're tiny.

Boisterousness is not always acceptable. I'm not one of these people who thinks that children shouldn't be in church, I'm all for those family services with loads of kids there (or would be, if I were remotely religious) but as many have said before me, churches are a place where people have a tendency to go for quiet reflection when they're not being used for services, and if you take a child in there, you should be prepared to explain to it that running and shouting aren't acceptable.

There are loads of other places where running and shouting are likewise unacceptable, and yet I see parents oblivious to/proud of it. Makes me mad.

I remember sitting very smugly in church one Sunday thinking how well behaved my children were - all five of them sitting still and quietly, standing up and sitting down when instructed. Then, DS2 threw a punch at DS1, which completely removed any notions of smugness.

Seriously, we have brought our children up to behave in church. They are comfortable there, they have fun, they have friends. The older ones go on their own to teen activities, quite voluntarily. None of them feel that they are not welcome.

We have just felt that sitting still for 20 minutes (except when standing with everyone else) is not a lot to ask. When they were babies, they were swiftly shoved on a boob the second they showed signs of restlessness. As they became toddlers, they had board books (Christian, of course), silently forced on them.

It really is possible to train a 3 year old boy (I've been through that twice). To behave in a special place for 10 or 20 minutes is not a particularly lofty expectation.

It is also important to be sensitive to and respectful of older members of our community. They grew up in a different time and have a much different relationship with the church. They should not be written off as old bats (and worse). Get to know an older Christian and you have found a real gem - they have so much to teach us.

YANBU - you have just as much right to be there as anyone else! Obviously you need to use your judgementwith this things - was he shouting obsecenities?! If he was simply enthusing then I think thats perfectly fine - breaking things/etc is not!
People are so intolerant!

I dont think a 'typical 3 year old' is one that shouts and screams.... thats a badly behaved 3 year old.. 3 year olds are capable of being quiet and should be in a church !

To let your child run amock in a place of worship, while someone was sat praying is hugely innapropiate and completly unreasonable.

yes the derogatory ageist language is a bit OTT.you interrupted her time.her space.

she gave a very measured response by sound of it

let your boy be boisterous in appropriate places.social norms do expect a modicum of quiet at church/school assembly/rituals and it is your responsibility to reinforce these norms

I would have said: 'I'm sorry if he's disturbing you, we won't be long. I want him to enjoy the church and to learn how to behave nicely here, and the only way to do that is to spend some time here."

This is also along the lines of what I say when I get a lot of tutting in art galleries, which often happens even when dcs are behaving very nicely.

as parents it is our duty to socialise our children approriatley for the situation
so e try our best and it might not work all the time ( squeakys punch PMSL) but we try.

a church is a place of worship and therefore i would suggest that a certain amount of respect has to be shown whether a believer or not.

As a catholic, i have shown rspect in other places or worship, adhered to other customs etc as it is respect for the people who hold that place in reverence.

i think if you had said " it was a n open day, and i really tried but ds ran off screaching" we would be having a different conversation - becuase you had put in the effort

however to let him wander and run - because he is small and its what small people do - in this instance was not acceptable becuase as a paretn you should have made an effort to show him that places of worship - to other people - are important and therefore we have to behave in a certain way.

I don't think YABU. Yes it sounds like your DS was being boisterous, yes perhaps he disrupted the old cow bag elderly lady for a few minutes, but so what? I used to go to our church every week, when I had DS one of the old bitches in the congregation said "I do hope you aren't going to bring a screaming baby to church every week" I gave her the "let the little children come unto me" as well as "he who harms a little one" and I have never been again. We go to a family serviec in the next village now where we actually feel welcome.

I can pray with a force ten gale going on about me, if that is what she was doing, if she can't screen out a bit of 3 year old chatter she has the problem, not you. You would think the elderly would like to hear small children, but most of them seem to loathe them. Resentment, bitterness and envy, I think.

Mrs M - when I used to go to church our Rector said that too. Best approach, I think.

well it depends on how you define "worship" doesn't it - I'm sure for those of you who have only ever been to a "children must be seen and not heard" church (or still attend one ) our monthly service aimed at the school children (it's held on a Wednesday rather than a Sunday) would be rather a shock........it is most definitely worship..........but Choral Mattins is 'aint

'it is your responsibility to reinforce these norms '

Responsibility? SM, wot is that? Where does that fit in with entitlement and me, me, me? Norms are meant to be challenged, especially when they are inconvient and not to your liking.

The 'r' word is dangerous language.

I've just read through the whole thread - I am definitely of the 'take children to church but encourage them to sit quietly/behave quietly.'

At age 3 it is definitely possible for children to sit still - at one of the churches we go to, the children go to Sunday School from age 3, so our children sit on their own in the front row for the first 20 minutes of the service, (we are at the front playing the organ), and then go out to Sunday School. They sit quietly and behave. And because the rest of the congregation can see that the children are being encouraged to sit quietly, they don't mind the odd interruption.

In other churches I have been to the children are positively flaunted - in a sort of 'look we have CHILDREN in our church' to the extent that services can be totally taken over by children's noise. And if you are perhaps elderly and a little hard of hearing it can wreck the entire service, and it isn't necessary - if children are making a huge amount of noise, then they're not really taking part in the service anyway.

I found a brilliant description of a 'children's policy' from a church in London - this puts into words much better what I think.

"Children are never too young to come to church, and we want you to know that at St Mary's you and your children are very welcome. On Sundays during term-time we run a Sunday School or, if you prefer, you can bring your children with you into church.

Worshipping God is an important way in which people learn what it means to be Christian. Children are no exception: they learn worship by worshipping with you. It is important that they realise that the church is a special place, not just another playgroup. You can teach them that there are times to stand and sing, but also times to be still and quiet - they love to imitate and conform.

Bringing children to church may not always be easy, but it is rewarding, and an essential part of their spiritual growth. "

I should add, it did occur to me that taking a child into a Hindu/Muslim/Buddhist/Sikh/Jewish place of worship, no-one would DREAM of letting their child run around, and likewise in a library/cinema/theatre a parent would encourage the child not to make a noise in order not to interrupt other people's time. And this lady may well have been praying - possibly for a bereavement - and I think that should be respected.

well said, tortoise.

I'm really appalled tbh by the fact that the op thinks its ok to allow a child to run and shout in a church. It just isn't, people go to church for many reasons but I doubt anyone, especially an elderly person with possibly different values and ideas of what a church is for, goes there to hear children making a racket and diturbing what is suppose to be a place of peace.
And whats with all the insults? You have no idea why she was there, as others have pointed out she may have been there for quiet remembrance and if she was then I think you got off lightly! How about respecting other people, rather than just assuming you can do as you like when you like?

YABVVU

I really hate parents who don't/can't control their children. They let their children run amok because it's 'easier'.

'open to all visitors' doesn't mean you should forget it's a church!

I've just read through this. I do think YABU sorry.

My DS is 19 months old and we often go to the church. We aren't real believers and we never go on a Sunday. But we got married there and DS was christened there so we enjoy going up there. We know the vicar very well and DS adores her.

If there is no one there except the vicar then DS is allowed to run around and shout and scream all he wants. The vicar has taken him up the thing(up a few steps to a platform she stands on) and let him shout down the microphone. But if there are people sat in the pews then we just go and sit in the childrens corner and play with the toys. If he starts to be too loud then we go and come back another day.

That old woman you were a bit nasty about might have been there because it was the day one of her parents died or something similar.

Sorry, YABU. I have an unruly 3yo too, but would not let him run around in a church. He is old enough to understand that different behaviour is suitable in different places.

We do go to church but only ever to the short family service where running around and general mayhem is the norm.

The old lady may have been a miserable old bat who has got your back up, and maybe shouldn't have been rude in the way she spoke to you, but open to all visitors doesn't give an excuse for inappropriate behaviour.

haven't read all of thread bu for what it's woth YANBU, there is a diference between being intersted and a bit noisy and being disruptive Imo.

wel not just IMO most of the vicars I know ( agree my Dad being one of them and all his cronies including some fairly eminent bishops.

agree with Mrs. Matties post on first page, a Christian place should welcome all with a Christian attitude and in every church we've taken dd (2) into the clergymen have said the same!

Sorry, YABU. I have an unruly 3yo too, but would not let him run around in a church. He is old enough to understand that different behaviour is suitable in different places.

We do go to church but only ever to the short family service where running around and general mayhem is the norm.

The old lady may have been a miserable old bat who has got your back up, and maybe shouldn't have been rude in the way she spoke to you, but open to all visitors doesn't give an excuse for inappropriate behaviour.

you're all FUCKED IN THE HEAD.

churches are for all of us. especially for children. if i was having a quiet pray and a candle i wouldn't mind for a second if there was an exuberant 3 y o running about.

tbh, in my version of him jesus would be really pleased.

think it's awful that you haven't been back to church.

they are in danger of making themselves extremely sterile places. don't let the old cow woman get you down.

you got back