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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To let my 3yo run around shouting in a church...

461 replies

alardi · 21/10/2008 17:56

Obviously not during a service(!).

Here's the scene:
Fine medieval church in a small market town. Sign on church door that says "The church is open to all visitors". It's market day so many people popping in and out to see the architexture, buy a card, light a candle..

I go in with my 3yo DS who likes to run to the back the church, stopping to talk shout about things on the way, then run back to the front area (near the door), where the children's door is so that he can look at books, play with Noah's Ark toys there, etc. He tends to shout when he speaks at all, so from a stranger's perspective, you could say he's running and shouting...

As he runs back, a sour faced old bat old lady sitting in the pews, stands up and shrieks speaks sternly "Excuse me, this is not a playground!"

So I apologised and left...DS kept asking why we had to leave and I said it was because the miserable old hag old lady didn't like children.

But I haven't set foot in the church since, don't want to cause offense, can't get over the feeling that churches are really only for the old and solemn and miserable, not for lively young children.

Or was I outrageous to ever take my unruly DS in, especially as we are contented, resolute unbelievers? I just felt the church was part of DS's heritage and even if we are slack secularists humanists, I didn't want churches/religion to seem like a foreign culture to DC (hence why we used to visit the church fairly frequently).

OP posts:
LittleMyDancingWithTheDevil · 21/10/2008 22:17

But taking part in a service and being a bit noisy is one thing, as is being interested and enthusiastic in a child like way.

But running from one end of the church to the other and shouting isn't using the church for it's intended purpose or even acknowledging that it's a place of worship, it's just treating it as somewhere to run around in when it's raining.

seems a bit rude to me.

MrsSnape · 21/10/2008 22:17

I'm not at all religious (and to be honest could be seen as quite anti-religion!) but on the odd occasion that I do take my kids into a church (mainly the holy trinity in the city centre because it's such a beautiful building) they are told:

a) not to run around
b) not to shout, scream, mess around, be loud etc
c) not to touch 'the books' and
d) be polite at all times and respect what the building is for.

YABU. my DS2 has suspected adhd and he knows not to charge around and shout in a church. If he did, I'd take him straight back out again.

bythepowerofgreyskull · 21/10/2008 22:21

I am split on this.. on one hand I think that your child should be able to look at the church in the manner most 3 year olds would. ie not quietly.
However I think that you should be respectful that the lady was perhaps not looking at the building as a stately building, pretty to look at but as a place for quiet reflection. I really believe that anyone who goes to pray in a church outside service times is looking for it to be peaceful.

I think if you want your son to be respected you need to show him how to show respect. it works both ways.

peacelily · 21/10/2008 22:21

mrs. Thierry Henri v well put!!

To the OP I'm realy sorry you've had this experience in sll my years of going to church in including with dd I've never encountered this, the congregation are always really pleased to see us and the "regulars" are happy to spend time with dd and my friends children and answer questions etc.

have never come accros ANYONE being annoyed with a child in a Church

ravenAK · 21/10/2008 22:22

I am an atheist.

I take my dc into churches because I want them to appreciate their cultural heritage, but also BECAUSE I want them to have experiences where they are expected to be respectful, subdued & sensitive to the needs of others. As does dh when he takes them to Buddhist meetings!

As an aside, I remember an over officious verger once attempting to chuck dh1 & myself out of Norwich Cathedral, having taken immediate exception to our leather jackets & multi-coloured spiky hair. He apologised once dh1 gave him his master class on misericords...

MrsThierryHenry · 21/10/2008 22:25

LittleMyDancing, my DS is not quite 2 (therefore not old enough for 'taking part' in a service at all!), and he was making a bit of noise during the quiet bits (actually, it was mostly quiet).

What if someone was overcome with emotion during a quiet bit in a service, and burst into tears? Would it be reasonable to expect them to sit there crying silently so as not to disturb the others? You mentioned the church's 'intended purpose': church is meant to be a community, not a mausoleum. There's an English (perhaps British) stiff upper lip which often gets even stiffer when you step into church.

I've already agreed that the OP should have had second thoughts about going in with a son who's bound to make lots of noise, however the woman in church was equally out of line in her own way.

MrsThierryHenry · 21/10/2008 22:27

ooops, meant to say 'the woman who snapped at the OP in church was equally out of line...'

ravenak! Are you absolutely sure it was your appearance that turned him off? What a w**ker!

(thanks, peacelily!)

morocco · 21/10/2008 22:29

next time you walk past an interesting mosque/temple why not also pop in there to let your 3 year old run riot for the fun of it Let everyone share the joy of your relaxed approach to parenting

ScottishMummy · 21/10/2008 22:31

op describes "tends to shout when he speaks..you could say he's running and shouting"

so a boisterous child

a stranger gets called a sour faced old bat old lady sitting in the pews, stands up and shrieks speaks sternly "Excuse me, this is not a playground!" and she is "miserable"

hardly crushing remonstration,actually statement of fact it is not a playground

LOL talk about reinterpreting and putting a spin on a story to suit oneself

OP child "running and shouting" and it is some ole woman's fault. ach well she will be deid soon eh

MrsThierryHenry · 21/10/2008 22:32

Morocco, it's my relaxed approach to church. I don't know any other faiths as well as I know Christianity so I couldn't possibly comment about them.

tortoiseshellWasMusicaYearsAgo · 21/10/2008 22:34

It's a balance though sophable - a church isn't necessarily sterile just because it doesn't have kids running around shouting - there can be all manner of community things happening - for example, the church we take the kids to that I mentioned above where they go to Sunday School from 3. There are no children running around during services, and yet there are between 40 and 50 children there every week - they all know how to sit still and quietly, and then after 20 mins go off to do more child-focussed things in Sunday School. But there is amazing community spirit in that church, and although it is locked during the week, that doesn't mean that the 'church' (ie the congregation) have ceased their 'church activities' - things happen all the time, just not always in the church building.

The other church we go to DOES have much more child noise/running around, but has far fewer children, and much less going on community wise. And my children MUCH prefer going to the first church.

peacelily · 21/10/2008 22:36

Morocco, i'm unsure as to the Musim/Hindu/Jewish take on this issue so I can't comment.

However having grown up with it I'm pretty sure on the Church of England attitude to children in church, nothing to do with a "relaxed attitude to parenting"

LittleMyDancingWithTheDevil · 21/10/2008 22:36

MrsThierry I wasn't saying your child should have been quiet in the service - my point is that you were there to take part in the church's life and as such you should be welcome to be yourselves, within reason. Of course I don't think people should be silent throughout.

But when you go into a communal space it's only polite to consider other people, and as churches between services are used by some for reflection and prayer, it's only courteous to keep it down a bit. Not saying everyone should walk around in silence, but maybe running and shouting is a bit OTT?

tortoiseshellWasMusicaYearsAgo · 21/10/2008 22:37

And also, something people forget is that, yes, churches are there for children, children are welcome, but adults and elderly people are too. And their needs are as valid as those of the children. Sometimes I think the church is so obssessed with 'welcoming children' that it forgets about its other members.

I'm sure if someone posted on here that they were trying to get some studying done in a library, and some child kept running around, yelling and taking books off the shelves, there would be general consensus that the mum should take the child out.

MrsMattie · 21/10/2008 22:38

Makes me glad I'm an atheist, to be honest.

peacelily · 21/10/2008 22:39

libraries do mean peace and contemplation and I've taken dd out when she's started talking, different from churches

ScottishMummy · 21/10/2008 22:40

well indeed i am with richard dawkins on the Big G question

kormAaaarrrggghhhchameleon · 21/10/2008 22:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LittleMyDancingWithTheDevil · 21/10/2008 22:42

I just don't get it.

If my DS was running and shouting in a friend's kitchen I'd ask him to stop, especially if it disturbed her. No religious reasons.

Running and shouting is for outside, the park, the playground or your own house.

In enclosed spaces you share with other people, 'inside voice' and consideration for others.

Or am I insane?

morocco · 21/10/2008 22:43

sorry, mrsthierryhenri, was talking about op really.

we go to church and our kids are rowdy though we do make some effort to get them to calm down
but op was not 'going to church', she was visiting an interesting building that also has a religious function but not one that she believes in.

maybe approach church and suggest they put up a polite notice asking visiting tourists to not treat the church as a playground?

HRHSaintMamazon · 21/10/2008 22:45

churches aren't playgrounds.
it is not safe for him to run around as he could hurt himself if he fell.

ravenAK · 21/10/2008 22:47

MrsTh, yes definitely.

Dh1 (Theology graduate, architecture enthusiast, & goth) was showing me some unusual 'green man' misericord carvings when said officious verger charged up demanding to know what we thought we were playing at, & suggesting rather sneerily that we might 'take ourselves off' to the biker pub round the corner.

To be fair, he was v apologetic when we explained & we ended up having a thoroughly nerdy convo about hidden symbolism in church architecture...

MrsMattie · 21/10/2008 22:48

Ok, so we're all agreed. Kids should sit still and be quiet in church and in Starbucks, and should only run and shriek in the park and at softplay.

Glad we've sorted that out, then.

MrsFogi · 21/10/2008 22:50

YABtotallyU - how bloody rude to let your dc run around in a church. Go to a playground for that sort of thing. Churches are for prayer, quiet contemplation etc. not a place for your dc to "explore".

ladymariner · 21/10/2008 22:50

sophable, you ask, in your extremely rude blunt fashion where is god and love in this thread? I'd say the old lady expected to find god and love in the church, not a three year old child running and shouting to his mother. I'm shocked at the lack of respect shown to other people, a church is not a playground! Why is that so hard to grasp?