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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To let my 3yo run around shouting in a church...

461 replies

alardi · 21/10/2008 17:56

Obviously not during a service(!).

Here's the scene:
Fine medieval church in a small market town. Sign on church door that says "The church is open to all visitors". It's market day so many people popping in and out to see the architexture, buy a card, light a candle..

I go in with my 3yo DS who likes to run to the back the church, stopping to talk shout about things on the way, then run back to the front area (near the door), where the children's door is so that he can look at books, play with Noah's Ark toys there, etc. He tends to shout when he speaks at all, so from a stranger's perspective, you could say he's running and shouting...

As he runs back, a sour faced old bat old lady sitting in the pews, stands up and shrieks speaks sternly "Excuse me, this is not a playground!"

So I apologised and left...DS kept asking why we had to leave and I said it was because the miserable old hag old lady didn't like children.

But I haven't set foot in the church since, don't want to cause offense, can't get over the feeling that churches are really only for the old and solemn and miserable, not for lively young children.

Or was I outrageous to ever take my unruly DS in, especially as we are contented, resolute unbelievers? I just felt the church was part of DS's heritage and even if we are slack secularists humanists, I didn't want churches/religion to seem like a foreign culture to DC (hence why we used to visit the church fairly frequently).

OP posts:
Reallytired · 21/10/2008 18:37

Three year olds are active by nature and its very hard to keep a three year old boy under control. Our priest thinks its important for small children to attend church, otherwise how do you expect them to learn about Jesus.

It has took a good four or five years to teach my son any manners or respect in church. He was an absolute monkey at the age of three.

Its important to respect everyone's feelings and there are times when its appriopate to take a small child into a church and times when it isn't.

expatinscotland · 21/10/2008 18:39

YABU.

TBH I find some British children the most ill-behaved I've encountered in the whole world and it's not something to be proud of.

It's quite sad, honestly, and embarrassing.

Who cares if she's old?

I'd have found it beyond disrespectful and irritating and I am not old and have kids myself.

SqueakyPop · 21/10/2008 18:40

Kids need to be taught how to behave, not just allow them to go along with their animilistic instincts.

ComeOVeneer · 21/10/2008 18:42

FAQ, somehow it is more acceptable if it is a family orientated service were there is generally a level of "child noise and movement". But during the day when the church is quiet, if you have come to visit it, you should (imo) walk around in a respectful manner. If you want to allow your child to shout and run around take them to the park!

FAQ · 21/10/2008 18:43

ermm no - he's done that during evening song when my DS's have been the only children there........

Original poster
alardi · 21/10/2008 18:45

Comeovener, I only got in the habit of going into the church because it was somewhere in town (when I needed to go anyway for shopping errands, etc.) to let the dc explore on rainy days (not so good to go to parks those days).

OP posts:
ComeOVeneer · 21/10/2008 18:47

OK, but I guess as part of the known community of the church (right or wrong as that may be) they gaze more fondly upon your children shall we say.

A member of the congregation goes in for some solitude and reflection, and random people come in and allow a child to run around and shout in the church, would that not seem disrespectful to you.

The OP is going on about teaching her child about religion/heritage etc. Surely good/appropriate behaviour in different social circumstances and respect for others/elders (perhaps elders makes me sound very old fashioned ) is equally as important?

thegirlwiththecurl · 21/10/2008 18:48

yes, i would have to agree that it is being disrespectful to allow you ds to run and shout in church when people could be there for quiet worship and prayer. I have young children and am very, very pro children in church. Thus, i totally support making children feeling welcome and catering for their needs in a church service, either through sunday school activities or in all age worship, but this situation is different and, also, i would not allow my children to run around and shout during a service. This is bloody hard at times, i know, but if you are sensible about it from the beginning (ie set the rules and bring stuff to entertain them) then it is possible.

SqueakyPop · 21/10/2008 18:48

Small children of our musicians usually get looked after by someone in the congregation (we are all church family). I don't think it's appropriate for small children to be crawling amongst all the amp equipment or interfering with microphones.

When we have school parties in church (church otherwise closed), they are told they can go anywhere they like and touch anything - except for the sound desk. Guess where they make a beeline for?

ComeOVeneer · 21/10/2008 18:49

alardi, I'm not saying you shouldn't take the children there. Infact I think it is great despite being non religious you encourage them to learn about other faiths/culture etc. I just disagree that you should allow them free reign inside a place where generally out of hours (so to speak) some people do go to sit quietly and pray/contemplate/talk to lost loved ones etc

FAQ · 21/10/2008 18:50

"OK, but I guess as part of the known community of the church (right or wrong as that may be) they gaze more fondly upon your children shall we say."

Well I guess that is true of most of the people that attend most of the services - however I'd say quite certainly that the ones that go to Evensong don't gaze on my children (or me for that matter ) that fondly (soulless buggers )

ComeOVeneer · 21/10/2008 19:01

"Soulless buggers", and you call yourself a christian

FAQ · 21/10/2008 19:03

well I was going to use a much worse description .

AbbeyA · 21/10/2008 19:13

YABU In a family service there is a creche or Sunday School and the DCs are catered for, they come back for the end of the service and everyone expects them to be a bit restless, it doesn't matter because people have had peace and quiet.
You have to appreciate that if you go into a church when it is not a service people are there for all sorts of reasons. Your old bat of a woman may have been in severe distress and wanting peace and quiet.
It is very easy to show DCs that they need to show respect, even if you are not believers. I have taken a whole class of 5 yr olds and they all picked up the atmosphere and walked and whispered.

Liffey · 21/10/2008 19:13

MrsMattie, what is that lesson from the bible, maybe Mark 10. is it? Jesus says, do not keep the children away from me for my sake. Let them come to me.

Words to that effect!!

I do try and keep my children quiet during communion. You know, I try! But I think it's better they're there than kept out of sight lest they annoy somebody somewhere on a short fuse.

Helsbels4 · 21/10/2008 19:14

Listen to you lot.......no wonder the numbers are down for people going to church these days! I'd be the first to tell my children to be calm and respectful BUT it was market day and a sign indicating all were welcome was displayed and the op says it was busy with people coming and going (if this woman wanted soooo much quiet then she should have gone at a more appropriate time.) My dd was 18mths when she was Christened and I was beside myself because she wouldn't stay put and be quiet and the vicar told me to leave her be and he would call her back for "the important bits!" Put me at ease no end and just how it should be. I have lost my mum in the last few years and have on occasion found comfort in being quiet in church but if a lively youngster came in, it would most likely make me smile rather than shout.

NotBigNotClever · 21/10/2008 19:19

It makes me cross when people say that it is hard to control a 3 year old boy. Well, I'm sorry but if you're his parent that's what you are there for - to teach him self-control. Yes, I have a 3 year old boy. An extremely large, self-confident and loud one. But he knows when it's appropriate to run around shouting and when it isn't. And yes, this needs reinforcing all the time.

Quattrocento · 21/10/2008 19:22

"Young kids can't be expected to sit still and quiet through long church services."

Mine blardy well did.

Even at the age of 3.

I'm an old fashioned sort of atheist.

AbbeyA · 21/10/2008 19:23

It is difficult to keep a small DC quiet during a service but very easy when you go for a walk around. They can walk and whisper.
I don't think that you can appreciate the distress that some people may be in, they are way beyond smiling at a badly behaved toddler-they may be suicidal.

Liffey · 21/10/2008 19:25

Helbsbels4, I agree, I am not operating on such a tightly coiled spring that children automatically always annoy me.

Jesus welcomes children according to the bible, the vicars/rectors/priests nowadays welcome children and want to see young families in church. They don't want people to stay away because they're embarrassed their young child might be a young child.

If you can always control your child, that might be 50% good parenting, so well done, but there is another 50% which is an unknown quotient. You were lucky. So don't be smug por favor!

Quattrocento · 21/10/2008 19:26

I'm not being smug, you're being lazy ...

pagwatch · 21/10/2008 19:27

fookin hell
We all had to sit silently through latin mass. If we moved or muttered or wriggled we were for it.
I remember the stuff I made up in my head to geth through it. I remember it clearly as such an early memory.

Oddly enough I remember it as really fab and comforting in a weird way ( especially given my lack of an formal religion now).

But the punishment of eternal damnation works wonders on even quite small children.

MorrisZapp · 21/10/2008 19:29

Totally U, and I suspect you know it!

I have to say I'm always suspicious of claims of all these nasty/ bitter/ ugly/ sour faced old women who hiss/shout/yell at everybody's DCs on these threads.

I suspect many of them are ordinary reasonable folks having a quiet and reasonable word.

A general rule would be, if you have a child who is hard to control, then don't take them to places where peace and quiet is an issue, if it can be avoided.

expatinscotland · 21/10/2008 19:29

'We all had to sit silently through latin mass. If we moved or muttered or wriggled we were for it.'

Yeah, and we knew it, too.

I tried it on. Once. With my dad. One of the only 3 times in my entire life he smacked me.

Now my mother, all she had to do is look at us.

Upwind · 21/10/2008 19:33

I used go to church as a child with my much younger siblings - noise of any kind was not tolerated and any toddler in the church who could not be quietened was hauled outside for a bit. It meant the other children as well as adults could hear the service and the church was very much a place of worship rather than a play area.

One of the reasons I don't go to church often now is because, when I do, I can't hear a word that is said between toddlers shouting questions, telling stories etc. I love children, but if that was what I wanted to listen to I would work at a creche!

People get great comfort from prayer and it can be hard to pray with noisy children about. Other visitors coming and going are not going to cause disruption in the same way. I would always remove a crying baby for the same reasons.