To hate materialism/western world and want to live with a remote tribe

[roseability]

Chilrearing seems to be so hard and everyone so unhappy

We must have gone wrong somewhere?

I personally blame capitalism, elitism and modern living/parenting

The thread about women expecting exspensive gifts for giving birth is an example

In some traditional tribes people fulfil their natural purpose and experience true happiness. Mothering is cherised and supported by the community.

Their children seem happier and are less demanding.

They don't lust after diamond rings or push their LOs into hundreds of activities in order to make them better, bigger, stronger.

Just a thought

Oh fgs, I think she is just saying that she is sick of materialism, not that she wants to sell all her belongings and go and live with a remote tribe.

Give rose a break.

NannyNanny, have you not heard of female genital mutilation you utter moron (I gather that insults are your favoured method of communication)?

Remote tribe - no problem.
Remote tribe without running hot water, red wine and books - forget it!

Difference is, rather than getting ADs and treatment, you'd have a shaman doing an exorcism on you to chase out the bad spirits.

Probably similarly efficacious

Personally, I'd like to cut out the middle man and just have Bruce Parry popping round to my house

pmsl @ ormlrian's remote tribe sum up

Nothing wrong with dreaming with your rose tinted spectacles on... Personally I would not like to live in a remote tribe, but certainly think many cultural habits of remote tribes could be adopted easily in to our own lives... respect for the elderly, the extended family taking care of each other, strong community bonds. We don't have to live without plumbing and electricity to have those things in our lives.

6,000 girls and woman a day are genitally mutilated. read this if you feel strong enough

I am pointing out that this rose-tinted idealism about having a lovely, woman-centred, 'supportive' time in 'remote tribes' is a ridiculous generalisation. Life is hard, and for women, particularly hard.

NannyNanny, what are you on? Do you really think that everyone in a traditional society is happy and everyone is supportive and no one is ever cruel? Female circumcision is a fact, for one thing. Women have bloody tough lives and early deaths in traditional societies the world over. Ok there may be a few non-violent, peace loving, community spirited groups where no one hurts each other and everyone's happy and no one is exploited. I seriously doubt they form a big enough proportion to make them happier than westerners, on average.

I do agree that extreme consumerism and some other western values make people unhappy. But IMO a great deal of happiness has come from overcoming tradition, fighting for equality, putting laws in place to protect women and children, so that for example your husband doesn't have the right to rape you. And I'm still fighting against the traditions that perpetuate sexism even now.

i can see where you're coming from..having lots of material things doesn't necessarily make people any happier, alot of people feel trapped or just want more. and as for my dh buying me a present when dc's were born?? no he didn't, amd i didn't expect him to.

I always think you have some measure of control over how materialistic your own family life is. Just because some woman expects a diamond for giving birth, doesn't ean a) that you have to give it to her
b) that you have to expect one for yourself
c) that you have to bring your children up to expect one.
The western world, like all other worlds, is made up of the people living in it. That's us, folks. If we don't like materialistic values- and a lot of us don't - then we can at least influence our own family to have different views. It's a start...

Agree with OrmIrian's sort of tribe
Maybe an Ipod too?

A diamond for giving birth?

God, I was lucky enough to get chocolate...

plus, it depends where about's in the country you live, where i live it's very materialistic..i guess if you come from some little village in wales you probably don't worry so much.

I am NOT depressed now and I am very excited about this pregnancy. I do hope I am more relaxed this time and don't suffer PND

However I got off track a bit. Just trying to point out my worries about the society we live in. Whilst there are many good things about western living e.g. great medical care there are many problems

I am just a deep thinker and sensitive about people and their feelings. A lot of my friends have found child rearing very tough

roseability on Thu 16-Oct-08 23:16:51
"I would gladly have lived without hot water if I had been happier and more supported by an understanding community

Instead mothers have to spend long, isolated days with crying babies and do all household chores and look great to boot"

I know what you're saying, but the only serious case of PND I have known was my grandmother who lived in a remote village with no support whatsoever and a pig ignorant and dirty midwife. She was too frightened ever to try for a baby again.

When I gave birth, modern communications meant that my mother, my father and my brother could come rushing from the other end of the North Sea to prop me up. We were taken home from hospital by a friendly neighbour. Another neighbour dropped by with clothes for the baby. A friend sent a huge parcel of cast-offs. Once I left the hospital, I had the support of a breastfeeding counsellor, two midwives and a health visitor who propelled me in the direction of the First Mums group. Some of them I knew already from the ante-natal group. Since then I have always felt that there are people around that I can call on. There is also the support of Mumsnet and of the online Support Group for my dd's joint condition. (years ago, you were just told that a crippled child could never amount to anything anyway)

I wish my poor Grandma had had some of that: I think she would have enjoyed motherhood a lot more. Even my Mum, though she had a supportive family, was never supported by the comumunity in the same way as I have been.

I can sort of see where you are coming from Roseability, more materialism doesn't seem to equal more happiness, but I can equally see why you have got so many people's backs up and I'm surprised that you can't see it too.

It does seem to me that you feel that your life (and by extension your mother's life) would be better if you were more cared for, and you're almost certainly right. But your OP does seem to be all about how society should change to suit you personally, not what you can do to make society better. TBH I don't think small close-knit communities are necessarily much better for people with conditions like PND, it depends on the personalities of others in the community.

It is possible to live the lifestyle you are seeking, even in the UK there are communities that have been set up to embrace many of the qualities that you strive for. Obviously there would be sacrifices on your side, you would have to move and change jobs for instance, but you would have the lifestyle that you hanker for and you won't be so pissed off that the everybody else is choosing their own lifestyle without considering your feelings.

Hi rose, glad to see you are back.

I also wanted to say that my dh is Indian and most of his family live in India. I know it is not a remote tribe, but there child-rearing stance is just so different to ours.

Yes there are mental illnesses, massive amounts of poverty and exploitation as well as unfair practices against women, however the care offered to some women after childbirth is unbelievable. Im my dh's family if you just had a baby, they will not let you lift a finger to do housework for at least three months, you are given ample time to sleep and rest and the women are there to look after your dc if you need a break.

Yes there are drawbacks to this system, not much privacy for a start, but the responsibility for raising dcs was not solely with the parents.

I know some people here are going to go hammer and tongs at me now saying "Well my family doesn't live close/ are old/ are psychopathic and I wouldn't let them near my dcs with a ten foot barge pole, but I am not suggesting that we live exactly like they do, maybe just take on board some of the principles - if you want to.

I give up!

Don't expect everyone to see my viewpoint but on mumsnet nobody ever seems to see my viewpoint and I feel I get a hard time

My DH thinks I seek approval on here and begs me not to post! I think I will take his advice

I have enjoyed mumsnet sometimes but I feel I am in danger of getting drawn in and taking it too personally

Bye and thanks for some good debates. My relationship with mumsnet is officially over!

Not flouncing btw just being sensible

A very interesting thread indeed. Sometimes I just want to escape from all this pressure I see put upon my children, all the awful striving for status other than kindness and compassion.

I read a really good book called Utopian Dreams by Tobias Jones. He went off searching for something other than this materialistic society by staying with communes around Europe. I find life difficult at times and I do think it is the lack of support and community, we always want to be somewhere else instead of where we are, making the best of our situation in life. These forums are great as they help us feel we are not alone. But also, I believe that if we have people around us who make us happy, who we can express to and listen to them unconditionally, it is what makes life. We dont need to buy into all the materialistic aspect of life and we can try and cultivate our own children with our own ideals of love, happiness and compassion, then we are doing what we think is right. xxx

some people actually find childrearing a piece of piss. they honestly do. DH does! he's not at all bothered by any aspect of it, was a SAHD for 4 years and will probably go back to that in a few months after DS is born.

Whilst I don't necessarily think childrearing is a piece of piss, like expat's dh, I didn't find it anywhere near as hard as some people on MN seem to.

I went through the toddler years from 1992 to 1997 & don't remember any of the probs people on MN seem to come up with, never bought a parenting magazine or book, just muddled through quite happily (no family around, we were pretty itinerant for years).

Sorry you feel the need to leave, Rose, you raised some interesting questions in your thread and I don't think people were getting at you, just appreciating the good aspects of living in a Western society.

'I went through the toddler years from 1992 to 1997 & don't remember any of the probs people on MN seem to come up with, never bought a parenting magazine or book, just muddled through quite happily (no family around, we were pretty itinerant for years).'

That's pretty much how DH is.

DD1 takes after him. Already talks about, 'When I be married . . . '

Well, people around here tend to marry young and have kids young, so who knows?

Interesting point abut Indian culture... I have heard that before, about how child-loving they (and some other cultures) are and about how the whole community mucks in to help. That does sound nice. But isn't India where women are set on fire for not having a good dowry, and baby girls are aborted/dumped for not being boys? I'm not denying the child-loving community aspect, but I do think human cultures are complex, and it's actually patronising to think any less developed / more "traditional" culture is any less complex than a western one. They all feature human nature, in all its complexity and huge capacity for both good and evil.

Rose, it is an interesting thread you started and although I got slightly heated back there it wasn't at you! Any topic worth a debate will lead to some raised voices and of course disagreements. One thing you can't do on MN is expect everyone to agree with you, and I've found that over the years it has helped me see that I'm not always right (not one of my strong points ) And yet MN is great for support, entertainment and information. Do leave if you want to, but just because of this thread would be sad.

Message withdrawn

"never bought a parenting magazine or book, just muddled through quite happily"

Yep that sounds like me. Not quite so 'happily' all the time but everyone has their ups and downs. JFDI is an acromyn I've adopted from work. Only bit of 'managment speak' I've ever had time for.