to think NCT antenatal courses are pretty much a load of crap???!

[Gateau]

What a waste of money. Yes, you meet some good friends from it, but IMO that's one of the only positives.
They draw over about six weeks what could be said in one or two classes. All the members of our course said that.
The course is almost all about the woman's 'birth experience' which I found just makes women obsess about the birth itself. So many women I knew were "disappointed" with the birth, when surely it's not all about teh birth, but more about the wonderful reward you get at the end?And they barely touch on having a C-section - which is what I had.
And there's all this rubbish about "challenging" the medical staff when they suggest you have a C-section- with what energy, after 14 hours in labour? And when they say either have a c-section or risk endangering you and the baby, what choice is there?
our NCT teacher asked me to do a talk to her new group post-baby - or rather I was the only one who said I would. She very much disliked that fact that I was telling them I bottle-fed (because we are breaking the breastfeeding law, of course)and that I DIDN'T advocate sitting around the house in pjs after the baby was born - it doesn't suit everyone's state of mind. The NCT IMO is dogmatic.
I think the NCT course would be much more productive if it focused a little more on the early parenting side of things - that's where me and most of my NCT friends could have done with the advice!!

lulumama - (sorry pruners another question !) in what way do they despair how it operates and its reputation?

They have recently appointed more tutors who have qualified to train teachers, more teachers are training which costs a fair bit of cash and again they can only run courses in areas where an ANT can operate. All ANTs are mums too.

Message withdrawn

pretty much everything that has been said already by myself and others

courses hard to get on, discounts not talked about, c.section not given enough discussion, very middle class reputation, lack of contact and communication from head office

for instance i emailed head office multiple times to find out about going on the special experiences register.. no reply ever

i had to email and phone 4 times to get info about the ante natal teaching course

the NCT has just rebranded, but until these fundamental issues are addressed nationally, i don;t see how things can move on

Actually agree about Head office communication, but having also seen HO ( as mentioned above ) agree that it is not one of those big flash charities who own some high rise blocks in the capital, the money really does go into supporting parents. If they used money from courses to improve services at head office would people be complaining they were not putting enough into training teachers?

Does your local ANT know the feelings of her branch with regard to her teaching?

Middle class image again can only be changed by members who join.

tiktok - of course I was aware of this but I assumed I would be able to express my views on an epidural and engage in a discussion, not be 'told off' which is what happened.

Pruners - I was indeed told about it being 'bad for the baby' and I did not expect just to get good news about epidurals. As it happens I had an appalling birth.

I can only comment on my own NCT experience and having just signed up on MN I think I'd better sign off now before this escalates! Really don't want to argue about it.

buf1 don't go, AIBU always gets like this, honest!

Fabsmum - I work in a different field but related (health & social care) and do lots and lots of stuff with clients and if we had this kind of response although i would want it verified i wouldn't be asking those individuals to 'prove' their experience was real, i would want to take it as a valid experience FOR THEM.

it is often how it 'feels' that is what goes wrong, people in vulnerable states eg pg, bereaved, just told they have a terminal illness, need to be treated very sensitively.

In 2008 we all expect a certain standard fo treatment and many are really clued up from places like MN or the internet or books etc and have an idea about what they want

i think this thread shows that pg women expect a high professional standard from the NCT (and you definitely think you provide this, good for you) but that somewhere along teh line these people feel they have been let down.

HO NCT do need to address this - see if the 'complaints' or moans are valid and think about how to deal with it.

But fabsmum and the other NCT AN teachers on here - this isn't personal to you although i understand that it feels so close to the heart of what you do that you feel it very strongly.

Over - there is a lot of good stuff on internet, there is also a lot of false,incorrect and down right dangerous stuff here too and even MN posters can give incorrect advice on here just as mothers can to each other face-to-face.

I am also from a professional healthcare background and you are right that it is often how people feel and I am sure this thread will be valuable as feedback.

However if you look at the title of the thread it is one person's view of one teacher from one course(although others have also shared their own negative experiences) and therefore it is bound to cause a strong reaction such as saying all MWs are crap or all HVs or all teachers etc, etc.

Just by saying a course is crap is not very constructive and I don't think it is too much to ask people to explain why it did not meet their needs in order to improve the service and some of the suggestions have been valid , some are more tricky to deal with.

HO possibly could see if complaints are valid if every participant filled in course feedback both at the end of the course and after they have had the baby, not just to the ANT but possibly thru the new booking clerks (Personal service administrators PSAs).
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However it is also true what a lot of the teachers have already said in that they don't set out to upset/offend people but that there are a lot of potential issues that could do just that because of all the different types of birth scenarios and all the different types of parenting issues.

Some of the issues such as overbooked classes, classes not available in areas and prices could all be potentially solved if everyone at MN joined! I joined after birth of my first, did not attend ANT classes and volunteered within my branch. I joined because I did not have the best birth experience and felt strongly that donating to such a charity could potentially help someone else out there. I am not middleclass.

The NCT also wants to help more parents after birth which has been a criticism in the past and this is why there are more people training as postnatal leaders like myself.

The thing is that you complete the course evaluation form at the last class, when you have no idea how irrelevent the previous 7 weeks have been. Had I the time, energy and motivation afterwards perhaps I would have contacted the teacher afterwards but tbh I didn't want her in my life at all.

NCT classes gave me totally false expectations of what a normal birth should be, and what to expect afterwards (and really this should be the first year, not the first few days) - this DIRECTLY contributed to my PND, I can say this without a shadow of a doubt.

Fabs - my posts which were overwhelmingly negative about my NCT experience were in no way a personal attack upon you. How could they be?

I feel you are taking somethings that posters have said (a minority, but a significant minority nonetheless) very personally. Please don't feel that way.

The course did not suit me at all. I am highly analytical and I like cold hard facts and practical experience to resolve potential problems. My teacher was someone who was very airyfairy so to that extent it is possible that there was a personal reaction.

I am not sure if there is a core syllabus, but if there isn't, perhaps there should be. I am not sure if there is a formal and tested feedback loop to assess teacher performance and coach teachers and help them to develop, but if there isn't then perhaps there should be.

My course focussed very heavily on natural forms of pain relief. I asked repeatedly for more information on other things and what to expect but I didn't feel that message was heard or dealt with appropriately. FWIW every single member of my course went through the birth experience using some form of "unnatural" pain relief and felt the same way.

I've taken it personally because what I see as the possible failings of a few teachers are being fingered by various people as a being symptomatic of a deeper and wider failure of the NCT itself. I think this is unfair and misleading. I've heard midwives being accused of providing insensitive care , but where do you hear anyone saying that the NHS is fundamentally at fault for failing to weed them out, or that training and assessment of midwives needs to be rethought branch and root? This is my livelyhood that's at stake here. There have been people who've come on to this thread who've read comments about NCT teachers supposedly sneering at people for bottlefeeding, among other things, and have said 'reading this thread has helped me make up my mind - I'm not going to bother with doing NCT classes!' So yes - I am rattled. By the character assassinations, the sweeping generalisations and the general unfairness of some of the comments.

"The course did not suit me at all. I am highly analytical and I like cold hard facts and practical experience to resolve potential problems. My teacher was someone who was very airyfairy so to that extent it is possible that there was a personal reaction."

You use the words 'airy fairy' to mean what? That she was more focused on the emotional, instinctive or spiritual aspects of labour? Did she give you any help with physical skills? Did she talk to you about breathing and positions? When you say that your teacher didn't deal with your questions on pharmacological pain relief 'appropriately' do you mean that she didn't make any information on other forms of pain relief available? Or did she refuse to discuss it at all?

When I discuss pain relief I generally get couples to share what they know about pethidine/epidurals etc; we talk about the risks and benefits of using pharmacological pain relief, and we work on scenarios - looking at real life situations where mums have used these drugs, and think through what the clinical and emotional issues are. Would this sort of dialogue have helped you feel more prepared? I try to be very even handed in the way I cover this topic and encourage women to be flexible, but I always have mums going away swearing they won't have an epidural or pethidine if they can possibly help it. A good proportion of these mums do go on to have epidurals/use opiates, and if one of the reasons for this was really poor emotional support during a challenging labour (unfortunately this happens quite a lot round our way), then they can still end up feeling very upset, especially if the birth then ends with a difficult forceps or ventouse delivery. So yes - sometimes they still feel betrayed and disappointed, despite having loads of 'facts' about pethidine and epidurals whirring around in their heads. What good has it done them in the long run? I think the point I'm making is that there is no proof that women who are very up on all the facts and the many possible things that can go wrong in labour have better experiences of birth, or are happier afterwards. TBH, I think there are a lot of midwives who feel that the opposite is true. And who are the worst people to care for in labour? Midwives and doctors! So yes - there is a rationale for not focusing overly on pharmacological pain relief and all the things that can go wrong in labour. It may not have been the approach that you wanted - but I'm sure your teacher had her reasons for doing things in the way she did. It's just a shame she didn't make her rationale clear to you all at the outset, and that she wasn't able to adapt her teaching once it became clear to her that the class wasn't meeting your particular needs.

BTW, when you are training there is a whole module on pain relief: we do a lot of work on women's expectations of labour and their experiences of pain. We have to research all forms of pain relief and have a good knowledge of current research into this area, plus know what methods of pain relief are available locally to women. What there isn't is a core syllabus of things you have to teach, and we're not told HOW to teach. Most teachers think long and hard about how they approach the issue of coping with pain in labour and we all do it in the way we think best.

"I am not sure if there is a formal and tested feedback loop to assess teacher performance and coach teachers and help them to develop, but if there isn't then perhaps there should be"

We are observed on a regular basis as part of our registration requirements. If a formal complaint is made against a teacher then it will be taken up by a board of senior teachers and tutors who will investigate the complaint and if necessary organise additional training and review procedures for the teacher.

Did you make a formal complaint?

Fabsmum - do not be too downhearted. Many of us do appreciate our ante-natal education from nct teachers. I used to be active in nct, and never met any one in RL who wrote off the classes as "a load of crap".

I remember once our nct teacher divided couples so that the women learnt something about care of pelvic floor in one room, and the teacher's husband took the men in another room and taught them "how to catch a baby on the kitchen floor", much to the amusement of all the men. But a couple of years later, one of the men had to put it into practice when the 2nd baby was born at home after the mother hardly had time to get her tights off.

fabsmum - can I just say that I fully and completely support you. I am an NCT teacher too and I feel as strongly as you about some of the inaccurate comments and statements on this thread. It's easy to criticise teachers in any field - and I personally know a) how much training is involved b) how much reflection and thought goes into preparing a course and c) how difficult it is to "please" everyone - and all for a relatively low salary and in my case, tons of voluntary work. Just today - Saturday - I have met up with two worried expectant parents who are petrified about the birth as the mother has a pre-existing illness.....I've spent two hours with them, for which I won't be charging, just because I want to help. I've also spent an hour on the phone to new parents who delivered last night and are having feeding difficulties. I've spent ages tracking down a breastfeeding counsellor who has given up her Saturday pm to go and see them in hospital - she is also NCT trained. Again, they won't be charged for this and the counsellor won't get paid for the visit either. OF COURSE we are upset at this thread - it's disheartening, upsetting and frankly unfair. Yes, the NCT has its faults but the point is that in my opinion we are all expected to act with the highest integrity and to keep up to date with all the latest research and we are NOT robots - we are people who passionately care about what we do and take it very seriously. If we didn't do this, then perhaps women in general would have something serious to complain about. As it is, we are lucky (in my opinion) to have the NCT - for all its faults....childbirth would be somewhere back in the dark ages if it did not exist.

Just to reiterate, the NCT is run mainly by volunteers who are nearly all mothers with very young children. Recruiting new volunteers is a full time job in itself. I live in a fairly affluent area of London. prime NCT territory, where SAHM are the norm and even so, it is just soooo difficult to find anybody to do anything. The branches are run on a shoestring, the teachers earn very little and give up hundreds of hours for free. All of my NCT teacher friends have given up so much precious family time to just be there (for free), for example, for parents of stillborn babies or new mothers with PND.
Yes, the courses are too expensive, but the economics of training NCT teachers and eg, breast-feeding counsellors mean this is inevitable. Many changes can/should be implemented from the top downwards but I think it is often assumed that the NCT, because it is well-known, is some massive charity on a par with say, the RSPCA whereas in fact its paid staff is tiny and it struggles constantly to stay afloat.

I'm so sorry when I hear that people have had a disappointing experience of any NCT teachers but complaints should be made against that individual and not the organisation as a whole. And pregnancy, childbirth and early pregnancy always is such an emotive, complex subject, NCT or any type of antenatal courses are never going to suit everybody.

fabsmum - your post is very clear and thoughtful. I thought my NCT classes were worth every penny, but then maybe I was more in tune with the natural birth philosophy. I found the breathing exercises which formed a part of every class were incredibly useful, and enabled me to get through my first birth on just gas and air. I didn't find the course 'woolly'. I found it honest and informative. If you are pretty decided that you want a medicalised birth with high tech pain relief, then it may not be for you. But for thousands of women and their partners NCT can be a hugely empowering experience.

But I do want a medicalised (third) birth with high tech pain relief. And there is still a place in the NCT for me

The trouble is, any charity work you do is open to criticism. Some people criticised Mother Teresa.

Of course the NCT has a place for all staranise!
I just felt from my experience that those of us in the classes who really embraced the natural birth philosophy found it particularly helpful. I dont know that I would have got so much out of it had I wanted a medicalised birth

The NCT's philosophy is to support women's choices in birth - not to judge them. Yes, charity work is of course open to criticism but I have found a lot of the criticisms on this thread either unfounded or ill informed.

Sorry, didn't mean to have a go at you personally findtheriver, just that the NCT has the reputation of being very pro-'natural' birth and I don't want any prospective mothers who are considering pain relief etc to be put off further from attending courses/groups on that basis . In my local NCT, the mothers have all sorts of experiences of childbirth/parenting, from adoption to homebirth etc and they are very non-judgemental in that respect, but I realise that this is at odds with its reputation.

Sorry for being sick but what is the £140 for? It's a choice to go to these things, right?

thick even!

Beanie, the £140 is the fees for the course. They are waived for any one on income support though. Breastfeeding support is free to any one who approaches a counsellor though.

wow this thread has moved fast since i've last logged on!! haven't read the later pages but think the fees could be reduced to allow all kinds of families into the NCT, rather than the select few who happens to have loads of cash to splash about on these types of courses.
And nhs classes are similar (not the same obv) to NCT classes, just NCT tend to spend more time on the finer details of childbirth. how much do you need to know anyway, it's such a broad topic. it's easier just to be brief about it, as the more details that are given the more chance one has to worry.

Scottishmum have you been to both types of classes? I have, and think they are VERY different.