Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think NCT antenatal courses are pretty much a load of crap???!

660 replies

Gateau · 30/07/2008 09:12

What a waste of money. Yes, you meet some good friends from it, but IMO that's one of the only positives.
They draw over about six weeks what could be said in one or two classes. All the members of our course said that.
The course is almost all about the woman's 'birth experience' which I found just makes women obsess about the birth itself. So many women I knew were "disappointed" with the birth, when surely it's not all about teh birth, but more about the wonderful reward you get at the end?And they barely touch on having a C-section - which is what I had.
And there's all this rubbish about "challenging" the medical staff when they suggest you have a C-section- with what energy, after 14 hours in labour? And when they say either have a c-section or risk endangering you and the baby, what choice is there?
our NCT teacher asked me to do a talk to her new group post-baby - or rather I was the only one who said I would. She very much disliked that fact that I was telling them I bottle-fed (because we are breaking the breastfeeding law, of course)and that I DIDN'T advocate sitting around the house in pjs after the baby was born - it doesn't suit everyone's state of mind. The NCT IMO is dogmatic.
I think the NCT course would be much more productive if it focused a little more on the early parenting side of things - that's where me and most of my NCT friends could have done with the advice!!

OP posts:
fabsmum · 01/08/2008 08:32

Would also like to add - that I'd love for the teachers who've had all these nasty things said about them to have a chance to defend themselves. We only have one sided accounts of the teaching here.

I think you need to remember that people's feelings about and memories of their birth preparation are shaped by what happens to them afterwards in some very odd ways. Birth is tough and people are feelings about it are complex. I've never forgotten a midwife saying 'you can read too much you know' to me during my NHS antenatal class with my first, in response to a question about whether having an epidural makes you more likely to end up with an instrumental birth. I remember it because I felt like a fool when she said it. I felt belittled. The fact that I went on to have an epidural, followed by a forceps birth, followed by years of perineal problems burned her comment into my brain. If instead of having an instrumental birth I'd had a normal one no doubt I would have forgotten what she said by now - certainly I wouldn't have fostered any resentment about it. It was a casual comment, kindly meant. She wanted to reassure me and stop me obsessing about all the things that could go wrong with my labour. But the result was that I ended up feeling I hadn't had a chance to discuss something that went on to become very important to me. Anyway - the point I'm trying to make is that it's not always fair to place our negative feelings about our births at the feet of those people who are supposed to help us prepare for them. Teachers get things wrong sometimes. So do midwives, so do doctors. But usually they mean well, and if they get honest, non-aggressive feedback then they have a chance to change the way they do things and do it better.

I also think the OP has a major axe to grind over her feeding choices. It's unfair of her to talk about an 'NCT law' on breastfeeding, and the teacher 'disapproving' of her bottlefeeding as though these things were somehow proven facts, when we know the first is rubbish, and she doesn't offer up any evidence for the second. I think it's annoying that so few people picked her up on this.

lulumama · 01/08/2008 08:43

fabsmum, you asked me for my issues re the NCT and i have answered, you clearly feel very passionataly about the issue and i applaud you for that.

however, i am still entitled to my opinion and my opinions are based on my personal experience. i am still involved in the NCT and i can see there are flaws within it

i understand they are a charity, and the pressure they are under,but admin has to be addressed.

the NCT does a huge amount of good, and it is a real shame it is not acknowledged, you have to ask why there is so much negativity surrounding it and what can be done to address it

re the OPs issue re breastfeeding, i did pick her up re her comments about breastfeeding mafia/ law.

lulumama · 01/08/2008 08:45

and thank you bubble

mygoodnessme · 01/08/2008 09:50

I loved my NCT classes and got LOADS out of them. I'd recommend them to anyone.

Buff1 · 01/08/2008 10:29

trickynicky - my NCT teacher was not happy when I said that I was pretty sure I wanted an epidural and then launched into how bad this was for the baby. In the end I didn't get one as the hospital didn't have a labour room ready for me and by the time it did, it was too late!

tiktok · 01/08/2008 10:51

fabsmum - thanks for the reminder to come back about the attitude to formula feeding, which the OP assessed from 'a look' the NCT teacher gave her. Many times on mumsnet people have complained about attitudes they have experienced when formula feeding. When questioned, they often describe being aware of someone looking at them, or being aware of silence, or in some cases, totally misinterpreting a comment.

None of this amounts to persecution.

It's horrible to feel judged and belittled, and it can certainly feel like persecution. I am sure that in some cases, overt criticism happens, even in NCT classes, but it is rare. People who are sensitive about their infant feeding become liable to interpret 'a look' as hostile, when it really isn't.

NCT is not hostile to formula feeding mothers. It supports all parents, regardless of feeding 'methods'. A class teacher might well have a dilemma on her hands if the visiting new parent is formula feeding, because demonstrations of formula feeding are not part of the class curriculum, and as boosting confidence in breastfeeding certainly is part of the curriculum, it presents a challenge, put it that way. That does not constitute a judgement on the parents - the reason why NCT has breastfeeding counsellors lies in our knowledge that breastfeeding is not something that all parents can do with ease and comfort. The look of 'disapproval' noted by Gateau may well have been nothing of the sort - just discomfort at her (the teacher's) dilemma.

tiktok · 01/08/2008 10:55

Buff - when you signed up for NCT classes, were you not aware that the classes would make sure any choices you made about pain relief or other interventions were informed ones? So anyone expressing a choice for an epidural would , surely, expect to hear information about the downsides as well as the positives of their choice?

I am sure the teacher would assume you were aware of that. If you had not wanted a dialogue, then maybe you should have told her first

overthemill · 01/08/2008 11:03

this seems (in the way of AIBU threads) to have got into a bit cross and difficult to untangle. I don't want to have this as a 'lets knock the entire NCT and every one of its teachers/volunteers' thread.

I feel that the NCT teachers on here and trying very hard to defend all their good practice - which is sad because the thread has given lots of personal evidence from women who have clearly not had these teachers but fairly crap (or simply bog standard) ones. No one is knocking any of you as individuals but what they experienced at their classes. (and loads of good experiences here too)

The NCT is a charity & like many others it is short of cash & dependent on donations and volunteers. I do get fed up when charities use income from training courses to subsidise other work without making this clear. If the charges could be set lower at base and then include a voluntary contribution to the NCT perhaps? BUT teachers need to be paid a living wage so that might not work.

Most pg women are willing/happy to pay for a course (if there is no other option) but most of us are at the point of worrying about future income too. At pg my income was over £35k but went down massively when I was on mat leave and then went part time afterwards. God we were so broke!

The courses should be subsidised by the state if they don't provide anything as an alternative.

I wonder whether any NCT branch does a deal with its local PCT? They have money for preventative healthcare/mat services.

Personally it seems to me that there is a huge amount of good feeling towards the NCT on this thread but lots of individual bad experiences with individual AN classes. Has anyone commissioned any research around AN teaching in the UK does anyone know?

EffiePerine · 01/08/2008 11:18

Many of us don;t have the option of NCT classes: the ones in my areas are always fully booked (and I enquired last time when I was about 8 weeks pg). The NHS ones were OK but didn't cover much. Seriously considering a doula this time round (now to convince DH...)

One thing that did put me off (before I realised I couldn't get on the course anyway) was the idea that as a middle-class urban mother I was expected to attend NCT classes and meet 'like-minded' people (which brought me out in hives). Also that DH was expected to attend too (which brought him out in hives).

SummatAnNowt · 01/08/2008 12:23

I didn't go to any. NCT probably booked (as I was already 16 weeks when I moved here), but they were right across town on an evening in a city with a shitty bus service and we had no car.

NHS classes were suspended for funding reasons and didn't happen again till after I'd had ds.

I got all my info from the net and was happy for it. But I do wish I'd known a group of people in real life in the same boat as me, it would've been handy after the birth. As it was even the mothers on the same ward as me were from other cities in the county.

OliviaMumsnetIsNotReallyHere · 01/08/2008 13:04

Just another (personal) recommendation for MarsLady's AN classes for those in N London.

vonsudenfed · 01/08/2008 13:15

I did NCT classes in the SW, and we had people coming over from Cardiff and S Wales because there was no NHS provision at all there; so some people don't have the choice to take the NHS classes.

And our teacher was excellent - and boy was I glad I'd been when I got to my emergency CS. She'd made us 'act out' all the people who would be there in theatre for an emergency CS, so I was completely reassured, rather than freaked by the numbers of strange people - I knew just why they were there and what they were doing.

But I do see the problem with the cost - and as the bookings are now managed centrally, the discounts are not well flagged at all.

I'm now involved with the NCT locally, in an area that's quite mixed. So we also run 'informal' classes locally, which are held in people's homes, cover whatever people want to know about with the help of a doula and local b/f counsellors etc, and we use the money from other activities to subsidise them.

Pruners · 01/08/2008 16:55

Message withdrawn

Pruners · 01/08/2008 16:58

Message withdrawn

lulumama · 01/08/2008 17:00

i heart pruners

Pruners · 01/08/2008 17:02

Message withdrawn

pointydog · 01/08/2008 17:09

What do you expect fropm an NCT ante-natal class? They are for making pals and chit-chatting about babies, no?

lulumama · 01/08/2008 17:13

i think you should relocate!

LindenAvery · 01/08/2008 17:15

pruners very good post, however it is a charity and will always be subjected to money issues.

As said the CEO has been informed of this thread and I will expect most of the specialist workers will feedback on this discussion.

As for asking what to do about it- is that such a bad thing? Why don't all the people who want the NCT to change become members and do something positive about it rather than complain it doesn't do this and doesn't do that.

The ethos is very much to accomodate all parents and some of the campaigns have benefitted all parents.

Pruners · 01/08/2008 17:16

Message withdrawn

LindenAvery · 01/08/2008 17:18

For example courses may not be available in some areas because there is not enough voluteers for a branch in that area. Antenatal teachers tend to live in the area where they work so if no one wants to train in that area who's fault is that?

fabsmum · 01/08/2008 17:19

"which is sad because the thread has given lots of personal evidence from women who have clearly not had these teachers but fairly crap (or simply bog standard) ones"

Sorry - but I don't except that the critical comments on here about teachers are clear 'proof' of their poor teaching. I get loads of really positive feedback from my classes, but every now and then I get negative feedback from someone who doesn't like my approach. If one person in a class of 12 is very unhappy with their class and dislikes me, does this make me a crap teacher who needs retraining? This happened to me recently when one woman got really angry during a class when I was talking about the issue of midwive's 'fobbing off' women who want epidurals (- ie, do you think fobbing off happens? how do you feel about it?) in relation to women requesting an epidural during late first stage labour, when the labour is progressing normally.

This mum comes from a country where many women have epidurals on request as soon as they go into labour. She said, angrily 'Why on earth would any midwife want to stop you having an epidural'? I opened the discussion up - it didn't help that the rest of the group was very anti-epidural and a lot of comments were made about the possible impact of epidural anaesthesia on the physiology of birth. I talked about how there's a preoccupation in midwifery as a profession in the UK right now with increasing rates of normal birth, and some midwives may feel that in fobbing some women off who want an epidural they're helping that person to have an uncomplicated birth. I made it very clear that this wasn't something I was supportive of, and we talked about where the buck stops when it comes to pain relief (we did reach an consensus that it always stops with the mother - it's her choice alone). We then went on to talk about what you could do to avoid the chance of this happening to you (in relation to birth plans and communicating with the midwife about pain relief). Anyway, this woman kept coming back to the issue of midwives stopping women having epidurals, as though she had switched off somewhere quite early in the discussion - gesticulating and raising her voice, talking about how her sister had had an epidural and that she'd had a perfectly normal birth etc etc. At the end of the class she just dashed off - and didn't attend the rest of the course, or come to the reunion. I emailed her twice asking if she was ok and said I was sorry if the class had upset her, but didn't get any response. And that was that.

I was really upset about it, and thought about it a lot afterwards. I wonder if anyone had asked her she'd have said that the classes were too focused on natural childbirth and that I was 'anti-epidural'.

I've also had very negative feedback from a client about a breastfeeding class (not taught by me). They came into my class the week after their bf class and said they were shocked by how 'anti-formula' the NCT was. The were positively bristling about it. Well I know what this bfc says about formula in her sessions because I've observed her teaching on a number of occasions. She spends about 15 minutes of a two hour class talking about the pros and cons of breastfeeding - during which time she refers to the risks of formula feeding, as all bf counsellors do in their teaching. Like many people, this couple had been planning on mixed feeding from early on, and this was the first time they had heard this information. They were shocked and angry. The rest of the 2 hour class would have been devoted to talking about attitudes to breastfeeding, finding out how bf works, and learning about positioning and latch. If bf had gone wrong for this couple the likelyhood I wonder if this is how they would have reported the class: "It was sh*te - the teacher went on and on about how evil formula was, and then made out that bf is really easy and natural. She didn't talk about all the things that can go wrong..... bloody NCT bf nazis" yada yada yada.

You get the picture?

People have 'issues'. Lots and lots of issues around birth and breastfeeding. And very disappointed and angry feelings about how they were cared for and how their births went. Teachers might not always be great, or even good, but they often cop a load of flack for things they really aren't responsible for and have no control over. There's been some serious character assasination going on on this thread, with teachers accused of not just stupidity, but seriously irresponisible and cruel behaviour towards parents. And they've had no chance to defend themselves. The thing that's really upset me is that these criticisms are seen as being rooted in the basic ethos of the NCT - an ethos which from where I'm standing is actually all about empowering mothers and supporthing their rights to decent care. How come no one ever does that with midwives or any other health professionals? Takes an perceived failure in practice of an individual, and uses that to cast aspersions on the values of the entire RCM?

LindenAvery · 01/08/2008 17:19

oops meant volunteers

lulumama · 01/08/2008 17:24

fabsmum.. you said 'How come no one ever does that with midwives or any other health professionals? Takes an perceived failure in practice of an individual, and uses that to cast aspersions on the values of the entire RCM?'

to be fair, i hvae read a number of threads on here and come across the same in RL, where mothers who have had a poor experience with a midwife have pretty much tarred the entire profession with the same brush

and the values of its governing body

so it is not simply just about singling out the NCT

i know a number of people involved in the NCT at a local level who despair of the way it operates and its reputation

this is surely soemthing that needs addressing from the top?

being a charity and run by volunteers does not mean it is beyond reproach

i really do admire your passion and dedication to your job and to the NCT

Pruners · 01/08/2008 17:25

Message withdrawn