to think NCT antenatal courses are pretty much a load of crap???!

[Gateau]

What a waste of money. Yes, you meet some good friends from it, but IMO that's one of the only positives.
They draw over about six weeks what could be said in one or two classes. All the members of our course said that.
The course is almost all about the woman's 'birth experience' which I found just makes women obsess about the birth itself. So many women I knew were "disappointed" with the birth, when surely it's not all about teh birth, but more about the wonderful reward you get at the end?And they barely touch on having a C-section - which is what I had.
And there's all this rubbish about "challenging" the medical staff when they suggest you have a C-section- with what energy, after 14 hours in labour? And when they say either have a c-section or risk endangering you and the baby, what choice is there?
our NCT teacher asked me to do a talk to her new group post-baby - or rather I was the only one who said I would. She very much disliked that fact that I was telling them I bottle-fed (because we are breaking the breastfeeding law, of course)and that I DIDN'T advocate sitting around the house in pjs after the baby was born - it doesn't suit everyone's state of mind. The NCT IMO is dogmatic.
I think the NCT course would be much more productive if it focused a little more on the early parenting side of things - that's where me and most of my NCT friends could have done with the advice!!

Totally agree. I met some nice Mummies but didn't learn enough about the practicalities of giving birth (like breathing and timimg contractions!) and felt unprepared. C-sections were dismissed even though there was a chance I might need one as he was breach (but turned at the last minute) and I was frowned upon for perhaps wanting an epidural.

All the guff about birth plans? My hospital didn't want to know as we just had to go along with what was happening and do what was best for me and the baby.

Buff - who frowned upon you for wanting an epidural?

Gateau re epidurals, you're lucky you had a successful epidural which went well and was effective, you clearly had a good anaesthetist. However giving an epidural is not the easiest procedure and many women have pain for years following poorly given epidurals. I know many aspects of birth, 'natural' or intervened can leave problems post partum, but I wouldn't be in a big hurry to let some god knows what level of trainee anaesthetist stick a needle in my spine without some hesitation! Of course when an epidural is necessary that's fine but when it is not necessary than it seems wrong to me. Women can cope with pain in labour if they are supported and comfortable. My ds was born very rapidly and I was in extreme pain but one of the worst things was that I wanted to be on my knees and was trying to kneel on a high hospital bed with these grooves in it which were SO uncomfortable. I wish I could have been in a proper birth suite, low down on some kind of soft mat or in water which might have given me some support.

I think if the NCT told the real truth about hospital births women would just all try to book into have elective caesarians. Also re breastfeeding, it can be for some of us, as hard as hell. But my sis (ex midwife) said they hate to put people off by saying how hard it can be!

Other than the cost of courses lulumama - what do you think the 'fundamental issues' the NCT isn't addressing in relation to it's antenatal teaching? Teachers are regularly assessed and expected to attend further training. There is also a complaints procedure for parents to follow if they are unhappy with the quality of their course.

I appreciate that there are ropey NCT teachers out there, but there are ropey doulas too! When you attend a doula run antenatal course you get no guarantee that you'll have your needs met - just like when you attend an NCT class or any other course.

BTW - I did a doula course myself last year. It was 3 days from start to finish, including the postnatal day. There were some lovely, knowledgeable women on the course, but also some people there who clearly had very major and worrying issues around their own births that they hadn't resolved. I went away feeling quite unsettled about it. The course was a reputable one registered with Doula UK, but there was no interview process - I can only assume that as long as you were able to stump up the fee you'd be allowed to attend.

At least an NCT teacher has done a minimum of three years training, and is required to attend regular obstetric update days in order to maintain her registration.

I'm not casting aspersions on your work Lulumamma - but I do think that people who employ doulas as antenatal educators need to know that a large number of them have very, very little formal training, and the majority have no training in education at all.

It's also true that many NCT teachers ARE doulas anyway! Being a doula is no more likely to result in you giving a 'balanced' class than being an NCT teacher or a midwife. And at least with an NCT teacher you've got a formal mechanism for making a complaint if you're not happy about the approach of the teacher. What would you do if you attend a doula's course and find that not to your liking? Does FEDANT or Doula UK provide any mechanism for giving refunds if people aren't happy with an antenatal education course delivered by a doula?

I agree with lulu. If you aren't getting what you paid for - complain. If you do feel strongly about it - contact the UK office.

Pruners - bigger classes for cheaper would be great. I think it's been said that many teachers teach from home and are therefore restricted to how many they can cram in their living room. If we used outside venues all the time, we'd lose a load of teachers. And costs for all classes have to be the same - I don't think NCT would want a sliding scale of cost based on how many couples were present.

We have tried in our branch to offer antenatal classes through SureStart for £1. We got no takers. So we end up in this cycle with a reputation of being middle class, trying to broaden our reach, nobody coming because we are too middle class and round we go.

If you earn under £15k the course is £20. If you earn £15k-£25k the course is £70-£135. Above £25k it is £135. (Not London prices.) Where are we getting the pricing wrong?

I should probably state that I'm not very important in the NCT and don't speak for them - this is the situation as I understand it.

i am not referring to the NCTs issues solely in regard to the clases, if you read my posts earlier, i have a good friend who is an AN teacher and i did look into the course myself.

i am not making this into a doula Vs NCT issue. as there are good and bad teachers, there are good and bad doulas too.

i am offering an alternative, as many women on this thread and in Rl seem to think there is no alternative to NCT or NHS classes

doulas have to keep themselves up to date and educated and many, such as myslef, are closely involved in their local maternity services

i am involved in my local NCT branch, and the issues i have seen are:

misconceptions and preconceptions about the NCT that have been highlighted again and again on this thread

the lack of communication from head office

the frequent complaints re courses, either being booked up, too dear, discounts not discussed and c.s not being covered

the OP stated she fed back her issues with the course to her teacher and got no reply.

i have emailed head office about various things over the years and have not had a reply ever !!

please don't make this into doulas VS NCt

i simply want to make sure women know they have a choice.

BTW, despite being involved in the NCT for over 2.5 years, i learnt about the dicsount on courses from MN , not the NCT itself

KatieDD posted last night about 'white coat fever' and 'challenging' decisions made by doctors.

This makes me very nervous.

I have tragic experience of wishing I'd challenged doctors to intervene more but I feel very wary of an NCT teacher, assuming she or he isn't fully aware of the clinical situation during labour - instructing his/her students to be suspicious of the motives of doctors by default.

Challenge what are obviously budget, rather than clinical decisions? Sure.

But set up a mindset that doctors are out to be 'challenged.' No.

NCT classes are only one part of NCT.

Breastfeeding counselling is a service that is free to all.

Postnatal support groups/coffee groups are free or very low cost.

Classes don't seem to me to be overpriced (not the £500 + ones!). Many of us undergo training in our professional lives. NCT classes are expensive if you compare them to the free NHS ones, of course, but not if you compare them to other private training.

A day's training in a small group will cost you (or your employer) somewhere between £100 and £500.

that is very true tiktok.. i think the social side and the breastfeeding support is absolutely invaluable

I have never done NCT as they were booked up so much ahead but looking back I must say I found out a lot from my friends...
My NHS ones were a hopeless. I did a 3 hour birth one that did not touch on c sections at all, i did a breast feeding one that was great but then I found it very difficult to breast feed after a c section. They didn't mention that women may have difficulty after a c section...
The last one i went to was a waterbirth one and that was great but then needed a c section.
Now on my 2nd I wont be going to any as i did find them a bit of a waste of time when actualy given a baby I just went " and now what do i do"
I was a nanny for a few years and everything just went from my head when i got home. What I really needed and didn't get was a nice person to see me in hospital and show me how to bath baby and to just guide me through a nappy change lol

the NHS ones a free and I really think that NCT ones are a bit pricey when you could buy a push chair and a great book on babycare for that

Ax

tiktok, lulu.

What do you think about an NCT teacher advising her students to 'challenge' decisions made by clinical staff?

I just don't see how this can be safe unless that teacher knows the situation the student is challenging.

i posted a bit lower down,or possibly on a different thread but my feeling is, don;t challenge something 'just because', but i you feel bullied into a course of action, you should feel able to ask questions, which of course is much easier before you are in labour.

i would urge women to explore birth and their options before labour, and to know the consequences of various things, such as early epidurals, immobility, no food and drink, and if their hospital has blanket policies that do not sit well, then to rethink birth options

perhaps a different hospital, different midwife or obs, or getting indie mw if possible, or booking a home birth

very often, women are scared into agreeing to things, rather than make an informed decision as risks are presented in such a terrifying way

i think women need balanced information and to understand no birth is risk free, but that you are allowed to ask questions about your care .

it is a balancing act for sure

the sort of thing i would challenge is:

indcution for no other reason than being 7 days post dates, expectant management rarely discussed

insisting a woman delivers on a bed

denial of waterbirth

routine ARM becasue a woman has reached a certain dilation, but labour is progressing normally

adhering to 1cm per hour dilation and wanting to augment even if baby and mother are well

i would not advocate arguing against intervention when mother and or baby are at real and immediate risk

it is something that needs addressing really carefully and i can see that women need to listen to and have confidence in their care givers, but confidence in their own bodies and their own needs.

i think women should be empowered to make decisions,but not to the detriment of theirs or their babies well being, whihc is where decent ante natal education comes into play

I did nct antenatal classes some 14 years ago and found them very helpful. I didn't realise quite how helpful they were till I spoke to women who had NOT had them, and found how ignorant they were about childbirth issues I took for granted.

My nct teacher was very even handed about the bf/ff choice, and at postnatal groups was very positive towards bottlefeeding mothers (whatever was in the bottle). We also had a whole session about bf in the antenatal classes so it was well covered.

We had some input about being assertive, and it did not come across as "refuse essential treatment" but more as question things, be aware of what may be more for the birth attendant's interests than the mother's. It was helpful to know that I did not have to go along with everything suggested by the mw, esp as mine asked me, just as I was at transition, if I would mind being filmed for a training video!

I agree with all of the'challenges' you have listed, lulu.

You are obviously clued-up and knowledgeable.

What (still) makes me nervous is an NCT teachers setting the default as 'clinical decisions are to be challenged' (and my nephew nearly died because of such a teacher) - to possibly first time parents with no clinical knowledge.

"misconceptions and preconceptions about the NCT that have been highlighted again and again on this thread"

How is the NCT responsible for misconceptions about their work? Year on year there are nasty articles sniping at the NCT in broadsheet newspapers (Alphamummy in the Times is a particularly bad offender) written by journalists with major axes to grind against the natural birth movement - who invariably haven't researched or attended NCT classes themselves, but still feel qualified to comment on the content and approach of courses. I've heard the The NCT being accused of being 'too middle class' over and over again, and there is never an acknowledgement made of the breadth and scope of the work we do in the NHS and with SureStart and Children's centres, among others, or the fact that they fund 80% of the training costs of ALL NCT teachers and breastfeeding counsellors, plus fund the breastfeeding line and pregnancy and birth line. There's also no acknowledgement of the fact that the money taken in antenatal course fees funds the lobbying the NCT does to improve maternity services -which benefits EVERYONE. If it's mentioned it's usually as an aside - as thought these things are just a minor detail, and secondary in importance to the antenatal classes.

I'm not denying there are voices on this thread (and elsewhere on the net) from women who are dissatisfied with their NCT courses, but I could find you ten times as many women who feel their courses were 'invaluable' and 'important'. I get many of my clients through word of mouth - most NCT teachers will tell you the same.

"the lack of communication from head office"

The NCT is no worse on this than any other charity I know. Of course things go wrong sometimes. If you'd been to NCT head office you'd have some understanding of the sort of pressure they are under. They're not some rich multi-national or public funded company. They're a charity and they have a lot of financial restraints to deal with.

"the frequent complaints re courses, either being booked up, too dear, discounts not discussed and c.s not being covered"

Yes - our booking system is a problem. Until recently it was run by volunteers - mums like you and me. We've just changed to a new system with paid booking clerks. Hopefully this will make a difference. I can't believe though that anyone would take issue with this though as a point of principle and hold it up as being some sort of signifier of some fundamental ethical flaw with the way the NCT operates.

And why is it such 'issue' if courses are booked up? They're booked up because they're popular.

"the OP stated she fed back her issues with the course to her teacher and got no reply"

If the OP was disatisfied with the course and made a formal complaint to HO she would have had a response. However - she made critical comments on the evaluation form and didn't, as far as we know, ask for a response. We also don't know exactly what she said on the evaluation form. Do you think that teachers should contact every person who makes a negative comment on their evaluation forms and apologise or explain? Maybe - but this is hardly a reason to take issue with the NCT as a whole.

i have emailed head office about various things over the years and have not had a reply ever !!

Well - why not find out who it is you need to talk to and call them instead? That's what I'd do if I got no response to an email.

"i would not advocate arguing against intervention when mother and or baby are at real and immediate risk"

Neither would any NCT teacher I know! I personally have never met any NCT teacher who doesn't put the health of mothers and babies at the centre of everything they do.

i challenge everything medical as a matter of course. 'why' is a good question, nothing to be scared of. challenging is not the same as refusing, it's just a way of increasing understanding imo.

i ADORE my obstetrician, he'd saved dd's life before she was even 3 weeks in the womb, i challenge him at every turn.

he himself asks 'why' a lot, takes everything back to first principles when deciding on what he thinks is the best course of action with a patient. he loves being challenged, it's his job to guide and help, not to make decisions that people are unsure about.

perhaps if the medics involved were more used to being queried, they might have been able to allay your sister's fears and help her and your dn better?

I havnt read the whole thread but just wanted to say i attended NCT classes in my second pg. Had had a very bad complications after ds and so wanted to ensure the same things didnt happen again. I also wanted to breast feed.
The classes were really good, they covered every aspect of pg and the first few weeks after birth. I found they gave me confindence in myself to give birth and I felt much calmer compared to the previous time.
The breathing techniques were AMAZING and i managed to fully dialate with out too much pain at all when i focused on my breathing which the nct teacher had taught me. The breast feeding classes were very informative and I really thought i would suceed. I didnt but this was down to having a 12 month old baby as well. Im totally for nct classes if theyre conducted the way mine was.... it was really good.

Aitch, I never acknowledged your earlier post - sorry bout that - love the description of poor old stick .

It is of course possible that I had a lunatic teacher. However it must then be appropriate to query why an organisation allows lunatics to teach?

And Fabsmum, you said "I'm not denying there are voices on this thread (and elsewhere on the net) from women who are dissatisfied with their NCT courses, but I could find you ten times as many women who feel their courses were 'invaluable' and 'important'. I get many of my clients through word of mouth - most NCT teachers will tell you the same."

But from the small sample on this thread, the dissatisfied are outweighed by the satisfied in a ratio of 14:24. That's actually pretty damning, you know. I like your impassioned defence of the NCT but I'd be more persuaded by it if it came from someone who DIDN'T have a vested interest.

yes, i agree with that. i'd love to know how those feedback forms work. i know that our feedback on the bfing class did make changes, but then i know that the teacher was new so perhaps they were keeping a closer eye on her?

We never bothered.
Was all set to book but then heard that you don 't learn anything that you couldnt read up on on the www and they are fairly pricey.

PS) I dont think that the NHS ones are any better (which I did go to).

Basically from my NHS experience and from talking to several people who did NCT classes, the focus is overly on giving birth.

At its most critical, I heard that the NCT classes were NHS ones with nicer biscuits in a nicer environment.

I think in this day and age, most people (I know) use these classes to make friends.

The feedback forms are for the teacher, who uses them to shape the way she delivers her class - or not, as is her choice. A number will be seen by her assessor when it comes to her regular assessments for reregistration. Formal complaints go through head office.

Quattocentro - did you make a formal complaint and ask for your money back? What did the other people on your course think? Was there a consensus that the course was very poor?

re feedback - I can;t remember when these get filled in but if it's after the classes but before the birth then that will skew what people say - certainly would have made a huge difference in what I said. and also re formal complaints - people have just had their first baby - they're very unlikely to have the time, energy or inclination to write complaints. and (finally) re recommendations - I recommended NCT (and still do) not for the content of the classes but for the chance to meet people - especially important if like me you know hardly anyone locally.