To suggest that a new mum who "has" to go back to work, reluctantly, after maternity leave, could down-size from her five-bedroom house and thereby afford to stay at home?

[Twoddle]

I have a good friend who really does have to go back to work when her maternity leave ends later this month. She and her husband genuinely can't afford to live without both their salaries so, as much as she'd like to stay home longer, she can't.

Another friend's sister, however, was pulling the "It's all right for some mums, hanging around at home all day - some of us have to go back to work" line. Knowing that she lives in a four-bedroom house and is having a loft conversion and buys everything new for the home and for the soon-to-arrive baby and has a bit of a clothes-buying habit ... well, I tactfully and carefully suggested to my friend that maybe her sister didn't have to return to work so soon if it was important for her to be at home for longer with her child. I said she could downsize to a smaller home, maybe cut back on some spending, and then be able to afford to extend her maternity leave - if she so wished.

Said friend warned me through a steely glare never to say such words to her sister, and the atmosphere was abysmal between us for the rest of the evening.

Was my suggestion so unreasonable, in the circumstances?

Silly me for playing devil's advocate ...

really KatieRocket .. you think so? and

I think you're mistaken really .. it's not my circles .. it's endemic in our society

Pause while 500 mumsnetters think...

Raxa, I think it's a really good idea not to suggest they 'hang around the house all day' for a start!

oh and I've got skin like a rhinocerous and have always been proud to say I'm a mother .. that's what I do .. in all and every circles (I'm also a School Governor, volunteer, art student and soon to be other student if I get on the course I'm applying for but first off I'm a mother and everything else can go hang if it gets in the way of me doing what we chose to do for our family)

I would normally say that it isn;t really the done thing to suggest ways that women could avoid going back to work if thast what they've decided to do (eg downsizing in my case would mean moving DS out of very good primary shcool catchmetn - big dilemma) but in this particular case if she is playing "poor littel me I have to go back to work" card then I don;t think its unreasonable to point out other options.

However you know that she has obviousl yconsidered that and you aren;t seriously thinking that she might say "oh you're quite right lets sell the house" you were just pointing out to her "tactfully and politely" that she values her house and clothes etc more than staying with her DC. I think I might find that a bit irritating.

Kewc .. it was the pregnant woman's sister spouting off .. the pregnant woman was not even there .. they were all pontificating behind her back and nobody knows what they as a family have decided

If someone is having a moan, surely you are entiteld to an opinion.
Or is there a new MN rule that we must keep all of those opinions to ourselves

I don;t understand - was friend saying that her sister said (but wasn;t there) "It's all right for some mums, hanging around at home all day - some of us have to go back to work". Thats just an odd conversation - why would you say something like that - or am I missing something?

I'm going to save this thread for later and savour it with a glass of wine and a box of chocolates. Oh i do love a good old SAHM?WOHM skirmish

I think it is probably better in RL not to pass an opinion on people's life choices. I would agree that I would rather be at home with a baby than have a big house but in the present housing market you would be mad to move unless you had to, it is downsizers who are losing out.

Well, suggesting they 'hang around the house all day' would be a) offensive and b) untrue. On the other hand, suggesting that they are lucky could elicit the 'look at what we've had to give up response' or suggesting that it's hard work can sound rather patronising.

Probably best to stick with 'what are you drinking?' I guess.

I agree the sister was very rude but it sounds like she may be trying to justify her decisions to herself.

I'm also wondering if the OP is my friend as this could apply to me! (aside from the shopping habit - cast-off Katy they call me). DH and I both work full-time and have a 4 bedroom home. On one occasion when I was moaning that I would love to work part-time, a friend (who works part-time) commented that I would just need to 'sell my big house'. I was quite taken aback at the time and never said anythign but what I should have said is that our 'big house' started off as a very small, run-down house that we have busted our balls to bring up to standard. My dh has done all the work on it and we have brought up 2 kids in a building site. The reason that we are not going to sell it now is because:
a.) we would like to have more children
b.) both our families live far from us and it's nice to have somewhere to put them when they come to see the grandchildren
c.) most importantly, we view the house as my dh's pension and plan to downsize when we retire.

You really can't comment on other people's finances as you have no idea what they have to contend with. I earn substantially more than my dh, but very obviously everyone assumes he is the breadwinner as no-one ever suggests he stays at home with the kids!

You were just moaning at the wrong person, KatyH. She probably has a smaller house, no pension at all, and doesn't want to hear how you, who at least appear better off than she is, would 'love' to work part time.
It's like, you don't moan to a person with a child who can't speak about your child's talking all the time. Pick your audience!
I once really offended someone who works full time by saying that I didn't think I could ever envisage working full time in an office again (I hate it, plus I'm very, very disorganised - but my salary has been cut by more than half because of this decision and I constantly struggle with debt - totally my choice, not moaning about it). The person snapped 'well I don't have a choice', when her household income is easily more than double mine, she has a huge work pension and savings, which are important to her. She did have a choice, it just wasn't a choice she wanted to make - fair enough. I wasn't making any judgement on her choice, I was purely talking about myself, but she clearly felt quite insecure about working ft and as I didn't know her that well I should probably have said nothing at all in case it was misconstrued. It is a bloody minefield though!

Why are we all debating this woman's justification in returning to work. Yet, no one has said boo about the dad. Maybe this woman has gotten used to replying "because I HAVE to" when other people snottily questions her: "WHY are you going back to work so soon?"

All WOHM's know what I'm talking about. You get sneered at by the men at work, and the mums at the school gate. IT gets old and you develop one liner defense that gets spat out like and auto response after a while.

Let me recall a couple of my expereince just after a (very short) maternity leave after my first child was born:

I appear for a meeting.
Guy I work with: "Where's the baby?"
me: " under my desk... okay, at the childminder.
Guy: Nudges guy standing next time, cracks a cocky smile and says "Did you hear that? Two weeks old and already at the childminder?"

I was FURIOUS! (I still work with him and I still think he's an arse. DD is 5 now.

And another one, just before I had the baby, but still at work.

Guy (different from the one in story above): So, you're off soon.
me: Yes, but I'll be back after 4 weeks.
Guy: Yeah, my wife said that too. And she hasn't been back to work yet.

What? Like this twat knows better than I do when I'm coming back. A bit like don't woryy your pretty little head about. I still think he's an arse too.

"Because I need to" is really so much easier than some of the other conversations I have had to have. Conversations that DH has never experienced.

I think the point you make peace with your own decisions is the point where you realise that you get judged regardless (and I think is why so many of these arguments take place - we all feel hurt that we've been judged, without realising that people on the other side of the spectrum are equally and hurtfully as judged too). Whether you are fat or thin, WOHM/SAHM, attachment parent/love routine, strict/liberal, breastfeed/bottle feed. The actual position is immaterial.

Maybe we should all stop judging and just get on with our lives.

But then... where would the fun be in that

(but seriously, the path to peace is to bite tongue and keep judgements silent in your head)

It seems to me all this debate around staying at home or working outside the home applies to mothers. In my opinion more men should have the option of staying at home or working part-time. No-one bats an eyelid if a father works fulltime, why should it only be the mother who stays at home to care for children or who gives up her fulltime career.

Of course you are right to think what you did, Twoddle.
Many of us make great sacrifices so that we can stay at home with our children. I find the fact she doesn't want to strange, but I find the whole concept of 'working to stay sane' the barmiest of all.

Agree with Athene and imaparenttoo.

Just got back from a 3 day business trip to Ireland.

Colleagues "but what did you do with the children?"

They have a father.

We both work.

It made no difference to their routine whatsoever. (but they were glad to see me this morning!)

why is this any ANY of your business?

Quite.

We work to have constant access to Mumsnet

As any fule no

Lucky you mrsruffallo. I DO need to work to stay sane.

Arggh - 'nother comment to fuel the fire, as a pp said, you can't say anything to a MOTHER without them taking it the wrong way.

"I find the fact she doesn't want to strange" - how do you know she doesn't want to? Maybe she thinks its too big a scarfice for the whole family (changing schools etc).

I thought the point of theOP wasn;t to debate (yet agina)SAHM vs WOHM but whetehr she was being unreasonable to play devils advocate?

Hi Kew.

Crikey. Didn't expect this to take off as it has.

I agree with a lot of you. Of course it's none of my business - except I was being spoken to as though vindication/an opinion were sought, and I couldn't lie.

As I've already said, I truly don't care what each individual family does; how they sort these arrangements. And I don't make a habit of passing judgement unless someone is ranting and raving at me as though wanting an opinion.

People can make whatever choices they like, and I have friends who work/don't/do a bit of both and it isn't an issue. What I do have a problem with is someone making their choices - and it can be about this or anything, for that matter - and then (albeit via a relative) seeking a sympathy vote for the repercussions of that.

FWIW, I do know my friend's sister fairly well, and as I said, some kind of response was expected of me. So I gave it.

Pivotally, when it's about choice (i.e. it doesn't have to be done - and I realise that's a bit of a subjective hornet's nest as it is), a SAHM surely cannot choose to stay at home and want sympathy/pity for that choice, no more or less than a WOHM can choose to work out of the home and want the same. When it's not about reasonable choice, of course it's a different ball game.

I think I'm making myself clear, but maybe not? Twiglett, you seem to get it - thanks for summarising more succinctly.

I agree that keeping out of this would have been a good plan. I will practise my I-have-no-opinion pseudo-empathic nod.