To suggest that a new mum who "has" to go back to work, reluctantly, after maternity leave, could down-size from her five-bedroom house and thereby afford to stay at home?

[Twoddle]

I have a good friend who really does have to go back to work when her maternity leave ends later this month. She and her husband genuinely can't afford to live without both their salaries so, as much as she'd like to stay home longer, she can't.

Another friend's sister, however, was pulling the "It's all right for some mums, hanging around at home all day - some of us have to go back to work" line. Knowing that she lives in a four-bedroom house and is having a loft conversion and buys everything new for the home and for the soon-to-arrive baby and has a bit of a clothes-buying habit ... well, I tactfully and carefully suggested to my friend that maybe her sister didn't have to return to work so soon if it was important for her to be at home for longer with her child. I said she could downsize to a smaller home, maybe cut back on some spending, and then be able to afford to extend her maternity leave - if she so wished.

Said friend warned me through a steely glare never to say such words to her sister, and the atmosphere was abysmal between us for the rest of the evening.

Was my suggestion so unreasonable, in the circumstances?

Silly me for playing devil's advocate ...

LMD - I would love to be that mum who could give up work completely and stay at home and just look after DS. I have nearly achieved it; will be working from home only when mat leave expires at the end of this month, so get the best of both worlds - still get some income and get to spend nearly all day with DS.
Maybe it's because I don't have the high-flying career, and because I am a bit older (nearly 41), but I am so glad I have an excuse not to be in full time work.

I would probably still see clients for the massage though because I feel an obligation to them as their HCP (it's therapeutic massage, not nice strokey stuff) - but I wouldn't miss it and when we move to Australia, I will definitely not be working and will be happy to be that way.

I know it's not for everyone and I do believe that, on the whole, people should do what's right for them without being judged for it - on the other hand, read a book called The Nanny Diaries and see how far the other way it can go, in terms of "offloading" your DC (based on true accounts)

Xenia just makes me want to be a SAHM just for the sheer hell of it so I can just 'cop out' for my whole life...even when my kids have flown the nest...

cheers thumbwitch, might give that book a go after I've finished reading The Secret Diary of a Slummy Mummy. .
I feel the same thumbwitch, what's the point of slogging your guts out when you can be at home doing the job you love the most. It all depends on what gives you the most satifaction. some of us like to throw a career in the mix, others don't. each to their own.

HaventSleptForAYear - (btw i am not picking on you, but having to very quickly scan these pages late tonight and you actually replied to my comment)

'I didn't mean officially qualified, of course paper diplomas don't necessarily "qualify" you but I meant better able ie more patient, more experienced etc (which my childminder is, despite not having any formal qualifications).'
Childminders can afford to be patient, they hand the kids back at the end of the day.

'As for getting up in the night and changing sheets etc. - I don't know what people think WOHPs actually do - we don't have live-in nannies you know ! We too are on call 24/7.'

That was precisely my point.

And for the record, i love being a SAHM. My DDs are far from being dull and uninteresting.

I do look forward to being able to go to the loo on my own one day soon though.

I would say that the only person on these threads who is rude about non working mothers is Xenia. I'm not aware of any other poster who deliberately sets out to cause offense. I agree that Xenia's posts are forceful but I think that they are unusual.

On the other hand, non working mothers frequently talk about working parents "dumping kids" in nurseries and "handing them over to strangers" and, don't even seem to realise how innaccurate and upsetting their language could be.

I didn't say PT was best! I said "Working part time is considered just about acceptable". Most commetns I see which could even be vaguely interepreted as an attack on SAHM are generally in response to one of the phrases nkf mentions. Then they say inncocently "Oh I didn't mean you, I just do whats best for my children" [innocent passive aggressive emoticon]

surfingmummy - I don't think SAHMs are villified on MN, I think it's often the other way round. There was one thread recently where several people told the mother she was being cruel for considering sending her 3 year old to ft nursery. I've never seen anyone told they're being cruel for staying at home with their children.

"They have all made their decisions based on their situations, finances and views, and therefore I would never criticise any of them for their choices as they are clearly the right choices for them and their families."

Does this include the 'some working mothers' you know who don't take their children out of childcare when they're on leave, SurfingMummy? Or is it ok to criticise them on here but not to their faces, is that how it works?

"if people want to leave their dcs in childcare while they are on annual/mat leave then that's fine by me; it's up to them; I just find it a little mysterious as I would have thought (wrongly, obviously) that some might think it was a good chance to spend a little more time with them." - gosh, how self righteous can you get. And it's clearly not fine by you, from your tone! A prime example of what Kewcumber is talking about in her last post.

SAHMs are only criticised on MN when they get self righteous about their choice, I've found - as nkf has so rightly pointed out, Xenia is about the only person who criticises the actual choice to be a SAHM, and for very interesting political reasons, but somehow it's fine to have a go at WOHMs.

Except of course ones that are your friends, they're fine because they've thought carefully about their choices - but it's ok to have a go at those anonymous 'some mothers' who do all those bad things like leaving their child in childcare when they're on leave, for nasty, selfish reasons.

One day, I might meet one of these WOHMs who doesn't care about her children's wellbeing and 'dumps' them with 'virtual strangers' for their own selfish reasons. Haven't found one yet.

Occasionally I take a days leave, and DS stays in nursery. This lets me do dangerous and terrible things like get my hair cut, go to the dentist/optician/doctor, accompany my parents to a hospital visit. I try and pack as many things that are not going to a thrill for my 2 year old to do into one day so that our time together is more meaningful for him that being made to sit still.

And again, I note that no FT WOH fathers get villified for going on holiday and putting their children in kids clubs when they are there. Or playing golf/football at the weekends

"And again, I note that no FT WOH fathers get villified for going on holiday and putting their children in kids clubs when they are there. Or playing golf/football at the weekends"

Of course not, because as ever this debate has naff-all to do with the actual welfare of the children, and all to do with women's infernal competitive/bitchy streak.

Most fathers I know think this debate is completely insane.

LMD - I sais a very very long time ago on this thread when someone was describing how they bitched to their freinds about WOHM that I wouldn dream of discussing my childcare choices in work, mostly for the reason you say. My male (and childless)colleagues would think I had lost my marbles - thankfully I have no-one else to discuss it with as there are no other women working here who have children.

Littlemissdancing:
"you know what, I'd prefer to think the best of people than assume the worst"

Nice to hear - we did exactly what you describe, for the reasons you describe (but part-time child-minder).

People go on and on (on here) about how they are the only ones that know what's best for their child.

How about trusting others to do the same with their children.

Would be great to see a bit more of your attitude.

littlemydancing - sorry to get your name wrong, especially when I agree with everything you have said

especially liked the "smell of burning martyr" comment - SO sick of it.

Well, exactly. LMD. It's laughable to even imagine men being so petty. And if that is an unsisterly comment, so be it.

I think that men don't really "get" the whole hang-up women have about child-care.

When things are tough at home, DH often says - oh just take them to the childminder's for a bit, no guilt, nothing.

It comes back down to that huge pressure on women (from where?) to be perfect mothers, whereas anything fathers do is already considered great.

Are men "unbrotherly"?

SurfingMummy - leaving my 'raw nerves' out of it (my personal circumstances are not relevant to this discussion and are none of anyone's business), your comments do, intentionally or not, come across as very self righteous. If you have no criticism or judgment of women who leave their children in childcare while on leave, why even bring it up?

If you genuinely feel neutral about it, I don't see why it's relevant to the discussion, it's just another example of judging other people's choices.

Particularly as you listed several reasons why they might do this in the same post, so I'm not sure why you're still so mystified as to why it might happen.

As for my last two paras:

The last one was a reference to a post from ScottishMummy about the Slammers stereotype, so not about you at all.

And the second to last - I'm sorry, but you do say exactly that. In one post you talk about how you would never judge your friends' choices, but then in another you talk critically about these 'some mothers' you know who leave their children in childcare when on annual leave. So either you don't actually know these 'some mothers' at all, or you are being critical of people you know on here.

If you read all my posts, I am definitely not setting out to antagonise and am wholeheartedly in favour of supporting all women in their choices - but that means dropping any talk of 'I can't understand why any woman would do that (work FT, work PT, stay at home, whatever) to her children' and not examining other women's choices with a critical and judgmental eye.

Actually, what is utterly tedious about this debate is the way that so many people pretend that they don't want to judge, would never judge and are doing just that. It's all so fake. All this pretence about supporting choices and blah blah when it's nothing of the kind. I'd rather read Xenia's brutality than the simpering fakery.

And, while I'm on a rant, what's all this stuff that some women have about patting themselves on the back for giving up luxuries like foreign holidays? There are women whose kids wouldn't eat if their mothers didn't work. Even if you have the imagination of a goldfish, you should be able to appreciate that if all you are giving up is a holiday and a new car, you're in a pretty enviable position.

Actually I agree with nkf that a lot of posters on these threads don't say all of what they mean. (The flipside being, if we did all say all of what we think, there would be some really extraordinary rows.) I think respecting other parents' choices is probably the best compromise we're going to be able to come up with.

I don't agree that Xenia is the only mn poster who is disparaging about SAHMs (and to be fair to xenia, she's toned it down considerably on this thread). There is a lot of sneering, and a lot of assumptions are made. Just look at findtheriver's posts earlier on this thread - saying things like 'I work because I want to be part of the big wide world.' Possibly this isn't a deliberate insult, but it's still insulting and inaccurate. These threads are full of things like that.

You are right PW in that non working mothers say things that are insulting "use brain," "real world" etc and don't necessaily realise how it comes over. I think that's what I find exasperating. If people have no real interest in understanding someone else's point of view and think people who differ are wrong, I'd rather the fight was out in the open than this covert sniping.

OK, you go first then