Teacher carrying 9yo into school.

[ChitterChatter1987]

My eldest daughter (Year 5) is becoming really tricky to get into school some days, particularly Mondays.
She has a male teacher for the first time this year, who she seems to get on well with and speaks positively about.She had specifically asked to have him despite often generally being abit more fearful of males than females.He is popular with kids and parents and is fairly young and laid back, quite playful and enthusiastic in his approach.

A couple of times he has come out when we have had issues getting her in recently and has verbally managed to persuade DD to go in by giving an incentive etc which has worked well, but today despite him trying this and offering good solutions to her worries, she just would not go in, and went outside the office reception and sat down refusing to move.
He suggested out of earshot for me to go as maybe me being there was making her more reluctant, which i agree was probably true as maybe then she thinks she might be able to come home.

I walked off up the path and left him negotiating with her outside as he had advised, however then looked back and saw him fireman carrying her into the building.
Now I totally get it's a hard sitiation knowing how to get her in,and appreciate he has a class to teach, so can't stand outside negotiating with her for ages, and there is a possibility she was okay with him lifting her in and it was a fun game (although I would be surprised as she isn't really a tactile child with anyone other than me and sometimes her dad and sister) If someone had done that with my 5yo, unless she was kicking and screaming in upset, I probably wouldn't think much of it tbh, but with her being older on the cusp of puberty, him being male, and also her having ASD and not liking physical touch, it just feels like it might be quite humiliating for her and abit forceful and inappropriate, despite it being meant as a playful gesture to get her to go in.
We always try to teach her body autonomy, that nobody should touch her including hugs etc without her wanting them to, so i just worry that this is going against that, especially with him being an adult male.
She is quite a young 9.5, and fairly small for her age, so not sure he would have done it otherwise, but despite that she is still the age she is.

My plan is I will speak to her later and see if she was okay with it or not, and if not ask for a meeting with school, asking them to not do it again and discussing alternative methods to get her into school.

What are others thoughts on this practice? If anyone else has experienced something similar, or has any ideas of alternative ways to get her into school i would be grateful for your input!

And dont forget you have to prove you are providing an educational at home for your child which is extremely difficult if your child is distressed and has disengaged!
And then there's the fines and court proceedings and or the threats if you either do not send them to school or dont give home ed in the way the LA want you to.
And after all that if you can not prove you can give them an educational they force the child back into school!
And all that with trying to pay the bills to keep a roof over your head.

It's the cheaper option. Do you think alternate provisions such as specialist schools are cheap?

Special School teacher here. Deal with a lot of EBSA..
Picking a child up (as well as blocking their exit etc) is a big No. It's a deprivation of her liberty. She's not strong enough to release from his hold. She's already in a flight/fight/freeze state so this could harm her more as her autonomy is being disregarded.

As a PP said, manual interventions should be proportionate and necessary. Was it 'necessary' for him to carry her, ie was she in danger of harming herself or someone around her? Or was it a way that he identified to end the stalemate and get her into the building because he decided it was time?

She is anxious about attending school for some reason, possibly her special needs. This is normal for a lot of children on the ASC spectrum. What isn't normal or legally acceptable is being physically manhandled, whether in ' good spirits ' or not.

This is the government guidance (updated April this year) https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6943dad6501cdd438f4cf5aa/Restrictive_interventions_including_use_of_reasonable_force_in_schools.pdf

I'm a teacher and think he made a poor choice which was inappropriate for your daughter and which could put him at risk of being the subject of a complaint from a parent.

In my school, this would be considered a physical intervention and would have to be logged on My Concern (the online system we use).

I think that you need to email the school asap and ask for an urgent appointment with the SENCO to agree a strategy for when the situation arises again.

50 years ago, everyone went into school with no problem. Certainly by 9 years of age.

If a fireman’s lift had been necessary (unheard of), the parent would have been grateful. This was back when people had common sense.

You say the schools have failed. I disagree. I think the schools do an excellent job managing the vast majority of children who know about respect, discipline and learning.

TBH i dont regard a schools lack of funding and ability to be able to look after unruly or SEN children as a reflection of the school. More society and government. But then thats even more difficult to discuss isnt it.

asking them to not do it again and discussing alternative methods to get her into school

What are the alternative methods you have to put forward that will work?

Yep. Makes me laugh.

We failed to teach your child to the point you had to take them out of school but you must somehow teach them despite the fact that you aren't a teacher or we will fine you. Oh and by the way, we've denied their EHCP/a place in specialist school/all of the above.

DD may have found it quite uncomfortable or humiliating

Not as humiliating as being illiterate for life.

50 years ago, attendance wasn't monitored as heavily as it is now. It was also only in the 70's that LA's were even given the legal responsibility to educate SEND children.

I wouldnt do either. I dont think its a solvable situation. I think the priority is to the majority though. That should be the fundamental message in all cases now.

It shows how little you understand that you are suggesting that these children are "embracing their power".

And "managing in the world"? One step at a time. It's not managing in the world to keep a child at home and it's not managing in the world to drag them in (and physically impossible as the child gets older). So the parent, child and school have to work together on strategies to enable the child to attend school in a manageable way.
You can't just say "tell the child they must go in or else ...". It just doesn't work that way.

Or alternatively

We cannot teach your child because you failed to instil just a basic level of self control or respect. You may not be qualified but neither is 99% of the teaching profession. You need specialist help but unfortunately the funding isnt available. Good luck.

So you just wouldn't educate disabled children?

Are you suggesting my son's epilepsy is caused by poor diet and bad parenting?

Are you saying ASD is just poor parenting and lack of respect?

I would think he would fall in to the genuine cases category that the payer mentions.

the difficulty is determining between the genuine cases and maybe less genuine is very difficult and also requires a lot of judgement as to what is considered genuine.

Not true. At my school it definitely was.

First sensible answer I’ve seen.

I train school staff in use of reasonable force and putting a child over your shoulder to carry them into school is the actions of someone with limited knowledge and training. There are several providers of this type of training and this is not an action that would be taught.

If this is the first time physical controls have been used then there should be an incident form completed. School now needs to put a risk assessment and possibly a positive handling plan in place. OP you need to ask school about this. Teachers can’t just do things like that. Even if it was reasonable, proportionate and necessary because she was a danger to herself or others there should still be a paperwork trail.

All hose of you who are totally fine with the actions taken, if she had struggled and he had fallen with her there could have potentially been far reaching implications. Now it’s happened once, it’s a foreseeable risk it could happen again and school have a legal duty to put plans in place to prevent it.

Attention issues? Epilepsy and it's associated fall out are attention issues?

Laughable that you think it's bad parenting and diets 😂

Fifty years ago the children that didn't want to go to school just didn't go to school. There were a number of children at my primary school who were rarely seen and one at secondary school who was more absent than present.

The needs of the majority outweigh the needs of the few.

I imagine there was quite the variety, again, considering the attendance regulations weren't as strictly required as they are now.

And 50 years ago all children wasnt ok, there were children that your right had no choice as in forced to go in with a beating if they didnt.
What happened was there was a lot of adults who had and still have very poor mental health!
Bad mental health back then was a taboo and nothing positive was gained from that!
Resilience is a good thing but needs to be taught at the right time not when there all ready in crisis.
And unfortunately even with all the Resilience in the world if you have really bad anxiety/depression that will not help.

You may find it laughable. I have witnessed it first hand. I did refer to genuine cases of which i happily accept their difficulties. But their needs dont outweigh the needs of the children who turn up every day, behaving themselves and hoping to be educated.