To think extra lessons for top students isn’t fair?

[Beepboobeep]

My DD’s state primary school has a “top maths club” and “great writers club” for the top performing students in yr 5 and 6 held outside of school hours. There is no charge for this - so it’s free childcare and free tutoring. You have to be invited. This has been running since the second week of the school year and is restarting on the first day of this half term.

By contrast, my dyslexic DD is in a group for those needing more support in writing, also outside of school hours. But they only managed 2 sessions last year and it hasn’t started back up this year. She gets ad hoc in school support; where it happens she misses other lessons that aren’t then caught up on, putting her further behind in the those.

I appreciate these children deserve challenging, but surely that could be done in class with different work and the teacher’s out of hours time, if available, used to help those struggling?

Is this even allowed in a state primary?

Legally you are right. Pretty usual for it to go along with other needs though, especially if the ups and downs of a spiky profile prevents the child from meeting their potential.

One of mine has high ratings on most areas and a proportionally much lower processing ability in another. The proportionally lower ability is classed as SEN - even though compared to most children statistically, in that domain he is average, not low-achieving. The need comes from the difference between his norm of greater potential and capability and this one area of average performance. And it drives him absolutely up the wall and causes behavioural issues.

Really they should have Ed Psychs in every school to create individualised learning profiles and structure the schools around those. Everyone has their needs, some more urgent than others, but imagine a world in which they all fulfilled their actual potential.

Would save squillions in the end because fewer people would end up with serious mental health conditions and in prison.

This is exactly what I mean too - the average performance doesn’t always mean average and happy. It often means fearsome intelligent on the one hand and held back by other bits of the brain not functioning great, on the other hand. Like a Ferrari engine badly connected up to a tractor might trundle along at 30. Doesn't mean it's as efficient and effective as the Fiat Panda chugging happily along also at 30.

Well you can reject it all you want, but it is the law and you are wrong to post being gifted is an SEN. It isn’t.

DC, like your DC you mention who is able but has AuDHD, can be gifted and have SEN, but being gifted on its own isn’t an SEN.

Gifted DC with SEN can still receive SEN Support and they can still have EHCPs.

Well the high achievers get ignored for 99% of lessons because they are “managing fine” so…

My point was there isn't going to be a class of G&T, how statistically likely is that- that's rhetorical by the way!

Secondary schools that are 'Good' often get one or two children with all 9s at GCSE if that. Again, this isn't any measure of being G&T as those children go on to study A levels and find they are achieving the same or lower grades as their peers. This doesn't suggest G&T.

My experience is frankly irrelevant and obviously unknown to you.

Tell me your kids are not gifted without.....

You clearly have absolutely no experience on how both ends of this spectrum works.

I'm a school governor. When my dd was at primary school, there was additional resource to stretch the most able kids - they were regularly taken out for small group activities and given additional challenges to complete etc. They benefited enormously from this additional input.

These days, there is no money to stretch the more able children in the same way during the ordinary school day. The limited resources that the school has are focused heavily on supporting children with SEN. The bright kids get as much differentiation as the teacher can manage within the whole class activities but no dedicated input or attention. The children with SEN all get some level of TA support within the classroom. Not always 1:1 but it's determined by need.

It's a shame that the most able kids can't get the level of input that they used to get a few years ago, but it is what it is. Sounds like this school is trying to compensate for that by offering an after school activity.

You see it as the school prioritising the more able children, OP. I suspect it's far more likely that the teachers are offering this - in their own free time - because they realise that the more able children are inevitably getting deprioritised throughout the school day because the school's limited resources are heavily focused on those who need more help.

How wrong you are. I have a, now adult, DD2 who is gifted. She is also autistic, her diagnosis is actually Asperger Syndrome as diagnosed before the change to encompass all under ASD.

I also have 3 teen DSs will SEN and EHCPs but they aren’t gifted.

I have also supported many other parents to secure SEN Support and EHCPs, including some who are gifted. I also happen to know the actual law, not what you would like it to be.

But is your point relevant to the class the OP is referring to? Surely, the whole class in an area where selective schools exist, is cynically providing this class to high achievers, to get into said schools.

And again, I am not talking about the law.

I am talking about reality that the law hasnt caught up with.

I’ve successfully applied for EHC assessments for exceptionally gifted autistic students who were struggling with their mental health.

No it isnt, it was in relation to another post. I would say that it sounds like this school isnt a good fit for the OP's child.

But talking about any other definition of SEN is irrelevant to the OP. The law is as it is. SEN is a term that is defined in legislation whether you agree with it or not.

Good for you.

You know why Asperger Syndrome was taken out of the DSM-5, though?

Good for them, specifically.

Maybe those top IQ scorers also had dyslexia or other SEN which went undiscovered and led to plummeting confidence and mental health issues? Dyslexia/ below average performance at school doesn't = low IQ.

Let's put it this way. 2 kids with an IQ of 120, one has dyslexia, one doesn't. Yes, they both deserve extra support but where funds are limited is it fair that the one without dyslexia gets more?

I was a higher achiever in school. Would it have been nice to have had a few extras at times, sure. But I didn’t deserve them more than a kid who was struggling.

I find the conversation about children being “gifted” interesting as most kids I knew who were described as “gifted” had below average social skills.

If it's outside of school hours are the teachers providing it on a volunteer basis? Maybe teachers with the correct qualifications are not able to volunteer for an after school SEN club.

As for free childcare - most childcare providers require the parents to pay full time, so the parents are probably still paying for childcare they're not actually using on the day their kid is in the club.

Why not?
My own child was a top achiever at primary. He spent most of his lessons chatting away or helping other children (at the teachers request after he would finish his work quickly because it was too easy) while teachers focused on those that were struggling. There was nothing in place to stretch and challenge him. There was no time for him during class because the teachers were helping those who needed extra help.

Being top achievers doesn't make the students less deserving of being taught further knowledge. If the teachers normal class time is dedicated to the ones who struggle then it's fair to have something in place for the others even if it's not during normal school hours.

Just because you spend £££ on having your child tutored and she's still falling behind it doesn't mean every top achiever has been tutored. Some are naturally gifted and talented.

Because the more pupils a primary school gets into grammar secondary (in addition to great SATS scores) the more appealing the primary school becomes for new intakes. It’s a selling point.

These yr5 and yr6 pupils may have joined the school based on previous “entry into grammar school’ statistics so their parents are now expecting the school to continue to meet these standards for their children.

Your dc will get a great deal of help, along with the rest of the class, in the lead up to the SATs, everything is revised thoroughly in preparation for them sitting their end of year 6 exams. If you feel your dc needs extra help right now, speak to the SENCo and if you can afford it maybe get her a tutor. Kids really do benefit from one-to-one teaching. Even grammar schools recommend getting tutors in year 11 for any weaker subjects in preparation for GCSEs.

This debate reminds me of an sf story called "Examination Day" set in a dystopian future where the government mandates that all children must take an intelligence test upon turning 12. While Dickie is eager and confident about taking the test, his parents are visibly terrified, anxious, and deeply stressed. At the end of the story, the parents receive a cold, clinical phone call from the government testing facility. The official informs them that Dickie's intelligence quotient exceeded the government-regulated code of elimination, meaning he was "too smart." The parents are asked how they would like to handle the fee for their son's government-ordered execution and burial.

You dont know this. My kid would be the first signed up for this & isnt tutored at all. One of mine is particularly able in maths & has been really put off it in school by the lack of challenge. They get pretty much ignored in school, all the more able kids do.

Be careful op. I've seen a group like this only once, and it was because they had some very able pupil premium kids and it was funded with that money. Most people wouldnt have known the kids were eligible for pupil premium, because hardly anyone knew they were adopted, their adoptive parents were well off middle class.

@Beepboobeep

Your jealousy and envy is so obvious in all your posts. You need to get a handle on that.

You are conflating issues.

What the "high achievers" do in their clubs is none of your business and not your concern if it is not applicable to your daughter. There is nothing wrong with trying to extend the experience of children who are often bored in classes that do not allow them to challenge themselves.

If you are not happy with the frequency or administration of the classes that are suitable for your child, you should raise that as an independent issue, not a comparative one.

You also need to take responsibility for your decisions - she has been there a long time in a "hot house" environment that you now deem unsuitable, but you never thought to move her?

Finally, as you are now moving to private school, I humbly suggest that you get a grip on your jealousy/envy issues because it may be much worse there for you if you can't stop comparing and competing.

Just focus on your own child. Accept her for who she is and do the best you can to support her, without looking left and right as to what others are doing.

Sorry but that's an evil thing to say.

Plenty kids with dyslexia make it to uni. Loads are diagnosed at uni.

School failed me, I went via college, no support at uni either but I never failed a single exam.

School suspected dyslexia from about the age of 7, high school suspect it from 1st year, formal diagnosis at 32 paid for by me.