To think neurodivergence is more common than neurotypical?

[PrincessOfPreschool]

I'm expecting to get hammered for this and it's only based on my sample size of family, extended family/ in laws, friends, people I work with, children I work with but...

I know a LOT of people who I would describe as 'neurodivergent', I think more than I know who are 'neurotypical'. Some of these are diagnosed (more of the younger generation, a few of my generation and none of my parents' generation - in their 80s). Obviously it's a spectrum so only a very few are significantly impacted in their daily lives (unable to go to school or work) but I can definitely see strong traits in my generation and older, many coping mechanisms being used throughout their lives. I do have quite a high awareness due to training in my work, and knowing friends family with ADHD and autism.

I wondered if it's just my family and the people I know, or if neurodivergence is actually really common to the point of being equally, or even more common, than neurotypical. Why is called divergent if it's actually quite typical?

What's your experience?

Since we are all different I don't understand the concept of neurotypical, we are all neurodiverse. Some people have more or less problems fitting into current society because of their particular random collection of brain activity or thinking processes or academic intelligence, motor skills, etc, etc but we are each a different assembly of all of these things.

Only severely affected children, or violent/criminal teenagers ( no doubt in modern terms these violent teens could be both nd and also traumatised. They still don’t get the help they need.)

Some in school were nerds good at maths etc, zooming through grammar schools; others were told to stop fidgeting and stop talking!

no, what nonsense. I encourage you to read up what DSM5 it ICD11 for example have say about the diagnostic criteria. We are not all a bit autistic. Only those with autism are.

Because I talk to them and it later comes out they aren’t diagnosed both in RL and on MN. Lots of people in support groups children don’t actually have a dx and then there’s the “neurospicy” 😳

That doesnt mean they have an EHCP though.

Quite frankly, I just don’t believe that everyone getting diagnosed by private psychiatrist (who is not prepared to provide any ongoing support so is not that bothered about giving out diagnosis) is ADHD or autistic. Nice guidelines are open to interpretation, it’s not an exact science. You could go to three different psychiatrists and they all might think differently.
Same with EHCPs. It’s those who shout the loudest. I’ve been through the process.
I don’t really understand what ADHD is anymore.
I have been told by multiple people I have traits of ADHD, and I work in a related field. I am loud, scatty, brain like a big messy ball of wool with fireworks going off, addictive personality, hate washing, overeat, late, been in debt/ IVA’s. I have a friend who is the most serene person, never late, remembers every birthday/ inset day, impeccably dressed, works out, very strict diet with 0 sugar, doesn’t drink or smoke, home owner. She’s just got a private diagnosis of ADHD.
How can this be the same condition when we both have such different symptoms? Surely it’s just the modern world impacting us differently. For me, I am overwhelmed with choice and fall apart. For her, she deals with this overwhelm by tightly controlling her environment and limiting her choices. There’s flaws in both ways of coping, but surely it’s modern life thats to blame, not a condition?

YABVU. Firstly because you are assuming your anecdotal evidence is a sign of the general situation and secondly it takes a quick google to find out that there are many academic reports on this, all or if not nearly all of which think that ND people are very much in the minority.

Eg this:

https://oshwiki.osha.europa.eu/en/themes/neurodiversity-work-impact-osh

Here js a quote that from the above that gives you the overall estimated figure for ND and also breaks it down by type or ND. This is for tbe EU but I don’t suppose the UK is any different.

“Prevalence of neurodivergent conditions
It is estimated that around 20% to 22% of the EU population is neurodivergent. Accurate estimates remain difficult because many children remain undiagnosed or are diagnosed later in life, and some neurodivergent individuals are never diagnosed[23]. Many neurodivergent conditions are also commonly comorbid. For example, around 50 to 70 per cent of people diagnosed with autism will also have signs of ADHD[31] and 20 to 40 per cent of people with dyslexia also have dyscalculia[26]. In a UK survey among 990 neurodivergent workers, more than 50% of the respondents reported more than one neurotype[32].

The prevalence of neurodivergent conditions varies by condition and depends on diagnostic criteria or reporting methods, but the following is a general overview of the estimated prevalence for the most common conditions:

• Dyslexia: between 9 and 12%[26]
• Dyscalculia: up to 6%[33]
• Dyspraxia: up to 6% [2] [33]
• ADHD: between 3% and 5% in childhood and 1.4 - 3.6% in adults[34]
• Autism Spectrum Disorder: between 1 and 2% [2] [29] [35]
• Tourette Syndrome: around 0.3% to 1% of the population[33]

Many of these neurodivergent conditions have been reported to increase over the last decades. For instance, in the US, estimates show an increase of 15% of children diagnosed with autism between 2012 and 2020[36]. This increase is partly a result of an increased awareness among health care professionals, parents and the broader population, changes to the diagnostic criteria and children being diagnosed at a younger age[37].”

Based on my families work experience - Maths and Phyics HE departments - academica/research more generally and library sector, yes software engineering but wider engineering in there is significant geographical correlation between elevated autism rates and major engineering or technology hubs - archology one of the kids gone into that area and it's a know one to attacked ND - Finance is another area and skilled trades.

I did google just in case my family was unusal - it's not far off though actual figures are hard to find - was surpised to read rail sector is historically accommodating due to its rigid safety rules and highly repetitive, structured operations - DH and my family have many ancestors employed there.

It does depends what ND covers as well - if it's ADHD and dsylexia art sector apparently a high area of employment.

I understand self diagsonsis is an issue but everyone I know is actaully diagonsed often through NHS and often after wait or years not weeks - and often after huge hurdles. As PP says till they are it's often suspected not saying they are.

It is more the younger generations - partly I think becuase edcuation sector is much harder than in past - classroom are noisy and visually demanding lots of group work and less time in curriculum to catch up. My family once we could access edcuation did well with it now tend to mange or really struggle - even simple accomodations weren't possible apparently.

It's clearly always been there in family even when diagnosis weren't - we have members who never leave home and strugge when parenst die and need family support - we have a lot of diffcult people who do stay employed becuase they find a small areas that play to strengths. We do not tend to have extreme levels of disablity that some families have so often in past wouldn't be noted.

I do think there almost a campaign to demononsie ND people - to blame them for school failing depsite fact my kids were often worse impacted by poor behavior - to blame them for rising level of illness in work forces as can't be raising of retirement ages menaing mroe get sick beforehand - and must be them not wanting work not low growth and workers staying in jobs longer to get to state reteiment ages.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of ADHD. It presents very differently in different people. It is a neurodevelopmental condition not a personality type.

I would assume your friend is experiencing mainly internal symptoms that are not visible to others. Eg mental hyperactivity. Also she may have worked very hard to develop management strategies.

Private psychiatrists do offer post-diagnosis support, often more frequently than the NHs.

I’m not sure what you mean by “neurodivergence”. This is an invented term with no medical meaning and there are very people “self-diagnosing” themselves with various things. All of that is pretty meaningless because obviously very few people would have a precisely “average” human brain at the mean of every measurement so “neurodiversity” if taken literally as a word will mean most people don’t fit precisely the average. That doesn’t, however, mean they have a neurological condition. There is a lot of nonsense spouted which is quite insulting to people who have genuine diagnosed medical conditions which - in order to be diagnosed because it is part if the diagnostic criteria - significantly impact their functioning in daily life.

In terms of actual medical conditions 1-2% of the population is autistic and 3-4% have ADHD. So no, @PrincessOfPreschoolit is not “really common” on a population basis because it is a small percentage of the population. Obviously though it isn’t “rare” to the extent that with this prevalence most people will know a few people with these conditions and encounter others fairly regularly. That doesn’t make it “typical”, no. And as others have stated, both conditions are hereditary so people tend to cluster together in families and with like-minded friends, colleagues in certain professions, partners, etc, so some people will know more than others who have these medical conditions.

It’s not entirely clear what you are asking.

3 generations in my family.

Youngest diagnosed with dyspraxia age 5, ASD, ADHD age 8.

Next generation diagnosed ADHD age 16 in the 90s. Now following up with ASD diagnosis and likely also dyspraxia. Parents realised in the 90s after a newspaper article about ADHD, they realised after their child was diagnosed with ASD they have the same symptoms.

Boomer grandparent. Not diagnosed but suspected ADHD after their child was diagnosed and ASD after their grandchild was diagnosed.

Boomer grandparents parent, one would have been diagnosed ASD and the other ADHD but they knew nothing of either condition because they had no frame of reference.

No it is just trendy now
and an excuse for a kid being lazy unintelligent or badly behaved 99% of he time

Oh come on are we all still pretending we believe these very clearly out of date statistics?

Everyone post how many diagnosed kids there are in your child’s class. I’ll start. 6 out of 26.

@dizzydizzydizzybut how is that different to a neurotypical person? If you can employ strategies to ‘not do the thing’ then you’re not doing it, the same as everyone else in the world!

That is just normal.

To give you a possible ADHD example scenario:

An NT person and a person with ADHD might both normally remember their appointments. The NT person glances at their calendar each morning and maybe has an alarm set for each appointment. The person with ADHD is likely to have a complex system of reminders - they’ll have umpteen phone alarms, a note on their front door, a note on the fridge and they’ll ask their partner to phone them too to make sure. In other words the person with ADHD is working MUCH harder to achieve the same outcome. In this scenario the person with ADHD is distracted very very easily and has next to no working memory, both of which are common problems in ADHD. So it is not the same. Appearing to cope does not mean the ADHD has gone or never existed. It is neurodevelopmental disorder and although children do sometimes grow out of it, anyone diagnosed as an adult won’t.

That's not true - everyone can tick some of the boxes on an autism questionnaire. It's not like being pregnant or catching malaria where if you don't have a positive test, you have zero characteristics of being pregnant or having malaria. Those are defined by "having a fertilised ovum" and "having malaria parasites in your bloodstream". Autism is defined as having more than a certain number of characteristics but everyone has one, two or several. Only those with autism have more than a certain number, they also need to be in a certain pattern.

Yes, ticking some of the boxes doesn’t make someone autistic. Having traits doesn’t make someone autistic. It’s the amount and intensity of those and how life is affected that makes up the criteria. The actual traits in the tick box questionnaires are just normal human traits, but added together and the experience of those is what makes the difference.

If everyone is special no one is special...

I think a lot of it is excuse for poor attention, poor behaviour and grab for attention.

I am starting to think that NT/ND have different definitions from a womans POV rather than a mans. That's not just a comment on the "manosphere".

How are we supposed to know? I have no idea.

You don’t get a diagnosis of ADHD by being normal. A diagnostician has to show that the patient has clinically significant impairments that impact on their ability to function in social,
educational and occupational settings. It is not just having a few of the traits, they have to be severe enough and numerous enough to affect most areas of your life. It is not normal .

6 out of 6.

He goes to a special school for autism.

Why in earth would random mumsnetters give data mote reliable than school and medical data.

but can they cope… they might be masking like fury and as soon as they get home it’s dysregulation central….

(I should add, I find this argument tedious . It’s not an impairment if you can keep a lid on it, and dysregulation did used to be known as ‘0ver tired’ ‘hangry’ ‘being a toddler/tween/teen’ or ‘having a paddy’)

@dizzydizzydizzybut how does a ND person know that a NT person doesn’t have to work very hard to keep appointments. I see my NT parents and friends making conscious efforts to not.. well to not live like me! I don’t put these things in place as I just don’t care enough, I cannot resist the temptation to do almost anything else but organise myself and get up early, or take care of my appearance or budget. I cannot, in all honesty, regulate my emotions and so this leaves me almost frantic/ manic or lying in a heap unable to move. So it really is in my control to live in a different way, but I chose not to. I’m not blaming this on a so called ‘superpower’.