Reached the end of my tether

[Isitmeanttobethishard]

I’ve posted before about my DS fighting. I seriously can’t carry on like this. It’s been months, they fight relentlessly over everything. Calm approaches haven’t worked, big huge dressing downs haven’t worked. Taking away treats and screens hasn’t worked. It’s not just bickering, it escalates very quickly into screaming, shouting, name calling and hitting.

Tonight, after having to break up 7 fights, I lost it (it’s happened so many times over the last few months). They both went to bed sobbing, with no cuddles or stories, but it will carry on tomorrow morning.

Help. I’m seriously contemplating separating from my DH and taking a child each on rotation as we’re just not a happy family, I can’t live my life like this.

Tell/warn your closest neighbours. Ignore them unless it looks like a trip to A& E is necessary.

Tell the DC if they're so bored they have to fight they can do [name chore]

Assign their bad behaviour the cause of too much screen time/tiredness. Limit screen time or move bed time earlier accordingly.

Have you tried videoing their behaviour and playing it back to them?

DS2 used to idolise DS1. DS1 would tease him relentlessly and go out of his way to wind DS2 up, but DS2 would always forgive him, still play whatever game DS1 wanted him to. Thats changed now, with DS2 being older and probably fed up of being relentlessly teased and mean to.
Maybe, but when was that? 4 years ago or more. Time has moved on. Your DS2 knows exactly what he's doing to wind up DS1 and he isn't a baby anymore. Let him take some responsibility for his own behaviour.

I think the 'two flat' solution is really giving their childish quarrels too much headspace. There shouldn't be adult consequences for child bad behaviour.

OP, have you tried saying loudly (or even shouting at them) that they need to shut up because they're doing your head in and stop being such obnoxious little oiks?

I would try understanding a bit less and shouting a bit more in your position tbh. They shouldn't be able to get away with making everyone in the house miserable.

You're bigger, you can shout louder and you call the shots. You just need to make them believe this.

Are they at the same school? I'd suggest a chat with one of their class teachers. Be honest about struggling. No doubt they're lovely kids in school with their own mates but our school would be able to signpost you to local support and advice, we could give you some approaches to try which are in line with what's done at school so it feels familiar but also takes into account your children's personalities and characters.

I think there’s some really unfair comments on here from some who seem desperate to blame the OP, as well as some really good advice. Some posters are falling over themselves to tell OP she’s being too harsh, and a similar amount telling her she’s being too soft. I think these contradictory stances show that this isn’t a simple or straightforward issue.

Me and my sister used the argue a fair amount and what helped was really, really clear rules that didn’t deviate. As others have suggested, things like set seating places, portions, who gets what cup etc help to remove the drive they will have to get something ‘better’ than the other, which causes anxiety and fights. I’d be tempted to go down the route of immediate separation when they start to argue, rather than letting them hash it out. I would definitely seek to stop them shouting at each other from their rooms - that is not ok. I like the idea from PP of one in their room, one with you doing jobs and then swap.

There doesnt need to be just gentle or authoritarian? Maybe somewhere in the middle?

Part of the problem imo is that this is being framed as a parenting issue that the OP has to solve, either by being gentler and more understanding or by being more authoritarian.

It's probably not a parenting issue, it's an endurance issue. It's not something you need to solve, OP, because it will probably continue into their teens until they either grow out of it or leave home.

@Delphiniumandlupins
Friend had this issue with two eldest sons. No help to you but it got worse when they teenagers - elder was bigger and stronger, younger was faster-witted and gobby. They are great friends as adults though.

This. Their personalities clash and so they'll probably continue baiting and needling each other until they mature.

You don't need to solve their issues, you just need to find a way to get them to shut up so you can get some peace and quiet, by whatever means work.

It hasn't sunk in because you let it go for far too long!
Now that you have had enough, you and DH need to get tough, work together to jump on any transgression immediately, as PP, don't get into the rights and wrongs of any situation, just firmly deal with it at the very first sign.

Teachers manage a class of 30, you've only got 2 to deal with but they know they get away with bad behaviour at home.

I would tell them that instead of a family holiday next year, the older one is going to a residential camp and the younger one is being left alone with a babysitter/family, while you and your DH go on holiday just the two of you.

This is not to punish them, but so that you and your DH can get through the next year of their bickering and poor behaviour without snapping and going insane.

In your shoes OP, I would be separating them the second things seem to be going south- don’t wait until they are both completely enraged, it needs nipping in the bud well before it gets to that point. I’d present it to them first so that they know this is going to happen- we are not tolerating this arguing any more, it is making home life miserable. The second it starts, you will be sent to x location and y location (not necessarily their bedrooms if they shout between them) and you will stay there for an hour. We will do this every single time until you learn to speak civilly to each other.

Then I’d follow through every single time, literally the second it started. I’d even block out a week in the diary, cancel all plans and make the entire aim of the week getting on top of this behaviour, making sure your husband is also available so you can each escort a child. I’d be steeling myself to have to do this multiple times a day, results may not appear immediately!

Your husband needs to stop the deep breathing business with them IMO. They should be upset, they are behaving appallingly. They do this because they want attention, so the behaviour has to lead to the absolute opposite of what they want- no attention. I wouldn’t actually bollock them either, that’s attention. Just the moment it starts, I’d be saying ‘right, that’s arguing, which you both know isn’t allowed in this house. Off to your rooms for an hour.’

It might also help to model the type of behaviour you DO want to see and actually spell out why that is the right thing to do. ‘See how politely I asked DH if I could get past him? That’s how we speak to people in our house’ type of thing if they tend to just bellow MOVE at each other (random example). Then loads of praise and attention whenever they actually speak pleasantly or even neutrally to each other!

You can laugh but I know someone who's neigbors called the cops because her two oldest girls kept fighting, like knock out drag out fighting. So yeah....they really need serious psych and med intervention before something like that happens. Because the OP doesn't want to then be on CPS' radar.

It's only a little tip, but a phrase I foud useful was 'I don't care who started it, I'm stopping it'.

No engagement, no listening to 'he said/but he said'. It reinforces who's in charge, and stops the smirking of one getting told off but not the other.

It sounds awful. Mine were so bad we had to drive them to school separately as they were so much worse in the car. They have just about grown out of it now. They are very close and seemed to enjoy the reaction from one another. There is probably no easier answer. I would try and distract, redirect and put some physical distance between them. I couldn't leave them to hash it out as worried one would hurt the other.

Mine were like this at that age, it was constant. And there was three of them. I did actually leave them to it most of the time. We had one broken finger and one burst ear drum, other than that it was all superficial 😂
They're 20s now and have stopped trying to murder each other.

Mum used to stick whoever was fighting in the same room, and shut the door. They weren't allowed out until they'd made up. Apparently it was pretty effective - as much as anything they got to the point where they united against a common enemy - Mum!

OP, what is the food situation?
I would cut out anything beyond a basic breakfast like porridge or weetabix, plain lunch, plain simple dinner.
No snacks, treats or anything even vaguely sweet.
I would tell them they are not allowed speak to each other at all.
The child that breaks it, spends the day in their room.
Keep that up.
They are not allowed to speak to their sibling.
They are a disgrace in how they treat each other and don't deserve each other.
Their behaviour is selfish, entitled and I believe they will only change through self interest.

Make their lives really uncomfortable.
I love my 4 children dearly but in your position they would be hating me for how firm I would be.

I would make their lives boring.
Age appropriate book to read in their room.

They don't respect any of you.
If they did, they would know not to be like this.

Make their lives really uncomfortable for an extended period, not just an evening or day.
Let them feel it for a week or more.
Let them see you and your husband utterly united in this.

If you don't do this now, the teenage years will be hell on earth.

I came on to say this. Amazing. My kids are younger but it's great so far. Easy reading cheat sheet at the end of each chapter, too !!

Mine are adults now and one is female so not quite the same dynamic. Also they are very close in age so were fairly well matched physically. When they were young and all hell broke loose and one would come to me and say he/she did this that or the other I would reply 'and what did you do?' - no sympathy as almost certainly they were as bad as each other. If they said 'he/she started it' my reply would be I'm not interested in who started it, I am only interested in who is stopping it. I just stayed neutral and let them work it out. No-one died and they now get on fine. I found that the more I intervened the worse they were so I kept out of it as far as possible and let them work it out themselves.

This is bloody genius 🤣

My GSs used to be like this, unrelenting. They fought under a table in a pub, we took them outside and made them stand with their faces to the wall separated by DH and I. We were fuming. It's awful.

Now they are adults and we asked them why? They replied because they could and it amused them to see adults getting so cross!

I have wondered about their diets. They have school dinners every week day which I know aren’t the best. Breakfasts are ok, porridge or weetabix, dinners vary as we are very busy in the week working full time, Mon/Tues usually something batch cooked we can eat as a family like spag bol, curry etc. They moan (DS2 particularly fussy) but they don’t get an alternative.

But they have too many snacks/treats. Grandparents collect them twice a week and there’s usually a chocolate bar treat there, and they’re still on ice lollies after dinner despite the cold weather. Plenty of fruit too and DS1 loves crudites, but definitely too many snacks and treats peppered through the week.

Thank you for all the posts. A lot to think about and a lot of different suggestions which I think hammers home how hard it can be.

I don't think you're taking an overinterventionist approach for the altruistic good of society.

I think you need to work out what is driving you to get so involved in each small conflict (which is driving a cycle of further escalated conflict).

As a first step, don't take sides and don't resolve things. You could say "both of you quieten down" or "both of you need to figure out how to end this silly fight".

The fights are over nothing as I'm sure anyone with more than one can imagine.

Classic example is choosing a song in the car - DS1 doesn’t want to choose a song. DS2 chooses one, which DS1 decides he doesn't like, so now he DOES want his turn. But he passed his turn so he now has to wait until after DS2’s song choice which he just hates and so he starts getting spiteful to DS2.

I don’t let them choose songs in the car for this exact reason, but it doesn’t stop the arguments over what books they’re reading in the car etc.

The car is a huge source of conflict and so hard as they can’t be separated.

I'd treat them like toddlers in the car. Set up an outing they both want, the minute they kick off, go home.

The spiteful example is DS1s "fault" what's his consequences?

A lot of the examples are DS1’s fault. DS2 is no angel now though, but so often DS1 starts it and then it escalates.

He has every consequence under the sun and we are constantly reprimanding him because he does this sort of thing a lot. We are in such a negative cycle of a relationship. We do have lovely connection time too, we always chat at bedtime and 1-1 he’s often lovely. But because we don’t let him get away with anything, both DH and I are constantly on his case.

One thing I did which worked reasonably well was ask them to write the rules together. This was when they were bickering over various games. So they sat down and agreed a set of rules which they each wrote out.
I am not saying it magically made it all disappear but at least we cojld all point to the rules they decided !!