Reached the end of my tether

[Isitmeanttobethishard]

I’ve posted before about my DS fighting. I seriously can’t carry on like this. It’s been months, they fight relentlessly over everything. Calm approaches haven’t worked, big huge dressing downs haven’t worked. Taking away treats and screens hasn’t worked. It’s not just bickering, it escalates very quickly into screaming, shouting, name calling and hitting.

Tonight, after having to break up 7 fights, I lost it (it’s happened so many times over the last few months). They both went to bed sobbing, with no cuddles or stories, but it will carry on tomorrow morning.

Help. I’m seriously contemplating separating from my DH and taking a child each on rotation as we’re just not a happy family, I can’t live my life like this.

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

A lot of boys do need the physical tumble. They just do. I’m old. Boys at my school regularly wrestled and shirts rarely had a full quota of buttons. However, it does need to be directed, if you can. Can you send them to Karate or something? It will give them a legal out, so to speak. Do they need a hobby such as woodwork? Something productive to do with their hands? Boys need that.

Some reading for you

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=steve+biddulph+raising+boys&crid=3PRQO2GLJLH6A&sprefix=Steve+bidd%2Caps%2C515&ref=nb_sb_ss_mvt-t11-ranker_2_10

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=maggie+dent+raising+boys&crid=Y1J2GL2SVE0U&sprefix=Maggie+dent%2Caps%2C523&ref=nb_sb_ss_mvt-t11-ranker_3_11

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=Lashlie&i=stripbooks&crid=10VKV7158NSVX&sprefix=lashlie%2Cstripbooks%2C490&ref=nb_sb_noss

All three of these are amazing. Celia Lashlie died too soon, sadly, Also, look them up on YouTube.

Boarding school for at least one of them - the oldest. Probably, cheaper than separate homes. My teenager came back from a year in a hall of residence with a whole new perspective.

DS1 told DS2 to shut up, when he was told off he immediately went for DS2. He’s told to go to his room, DS2 starts smirking. DS1 sees red - “stupid idiot”. Eventually got him to his room.
Why was DS1 told off? As its written, DS2 was disturbing the activity.

It used to be eldest DS always at fault. I find that very, very Hard to believe that it was always DS1's fault.

Ultimately he still is as I feel like their relationship has reached this point because of his teasing over the years.
Sounds like he's the scapegoat tbh.

DS2 is the shouter, and it feels like it’s become his instant go to whenever DS1 does anything remotely wrong.
and probably also when DS1 hasn't done anything wrong. Of course it is, he's learnt you'll come running and tell off DS1.

I did have a Phase with mine, I made them accompany me from room to room staying as far apart as possible. Also made them get off the bus and walk an hour home. They still remember that!

All sorts - being sent to their rooms, losing what we are doing at the time whether it’s a family film, game etc. Screen bans, so many screen time bans. If we are out somewhere fun like the park, beach, softplay etc, having to come and sit with us and do nothing for a set period of time.

All sorts - being sent to their rooms, losing what we are doing at the time whether it’s a family film, game etc. Screen bans, so many screen time bans. If we are out somewhere fun like the park, beach, softplay etc, having to come and sit with us and do nothing for a set period of time.

I wholeheartedly agree with the principle of this.

But it hasn’t worked. We have tried. After a brutal holiday of fighting in August, we worked so hard to be calm, but firm. Nothing changed.

It’s not always physical fighting - in fact that’s rarer. It’s shouting and name calling, which is how they can carry it on even when one is in the front seat and one in the back, or when it separate rooms. They will shout at each other from their bedrooms.

To the PP who said there’s no authority, on this that’s exactly how it is. DH and I were reflecting yesterday how we get this arguing and fighting to be seen by them as unacceptable as other behaviours - such as swearing etc. DS1 knows all the swear words and he has friends who swear a lot at school, but he knows it’s not ok. That has sunk in over the years, one way or another.

The same for being rude to strangers or other adults like aunties and uncles - DS1 in particular has wonderful manners, he’s always complimented and praised on how polite he is. He would never be rude to another adult. Yet he is rude to DH and I, and awful to DS2. I dont understand how some of these rules of what is acceptable behaviour and what isnt have sunk in, with little effort, but not for the fighting (nor being rude to us, he’s been like it for years).

DS2 used to idolise DS1. DS1 would tease him relentlessly and go out of his way to wind DS2 up, but DS2 would always forgive him, still play whatever game DS1 wanted him to. Thats changed now, with DS2 being older and probably fed up of being relentlessly teased and mean to.

Are you exercising them enough? Used to have mine out twice a day, no matter what the weather or they'd wreck the house & each other. I also finished up changing schools to one that prioritised physical activity. It helped a lot.

So? Then that's what you do!

I second the 'Sibling without Rivalry' book. Be patient, it will take time and perseverance, but really worth it in my experience!

This is same as my boys 11 years ago!!! I remember how much it wound me up too! No tips but they get on really well now!!!

I was a single mum to five kids, with seven years between first and last. The fighting was HELL. They would wind one another up and then sit back with That Smirk to watch their sibling(s) get into trouble.

In the end, I just stopped listening. They were doing it because they wanted my attention - good or bad, they didn't care. Because it was such a big family and there was only me they were permanent rivals for having me focus on them (I really did try but there's only so much you can do and keep a job and home running). So I'd walk out of the room. Put headphones on so I couldn't hear and pretend I couldn't see.

There was the odd physical fight, and more than one child telling me I didn't care about them because I was always on X's side.... etc etc. But nobody died. I don't know whether it was my method or them just growing out of it, but the fighting and arguing gradually stopped or became more 'one on one' about which TV programme to watch or something. They are all civilised adults now and don't even argue, let alone fight. But sometimes ignoring it is all you can do, and only march in as the nuclear option if it looks like someone will get seriously hurt (that was when I'd get involved, but it ALWAYS resulted in the fighters getting sent to their rooms to be ignored for a while which, of course, they hated).

They get lots of exercise, we walk to school rain or shine which is 3/4 a mile, and they do separate sports which comes to about 6 hours a week each. We also do a lot of walking on the weekend with the dog etc. DS1 moans about doing anything physical, other than his actual sports clubs which he enjoys, so our walks often start on the wrong foot (!) anyway as there’s been arguing to get him out, so once he’s in that bad mood DS2 gets it.

I would love to just leave them to hash it out. I’m not actually worried about them causing damage to each other as I think DS1 for sure would stop before it went too far physically. But the noise they make I just won’t subject my poor neighbours to that, as it’s multiple times a day. I wish I lived in a big detached house, I would turf them out into the garden and let them hash it out!

OP you're full of excuses for why you can't do the thing that would actually help - remove all oxygen from their fighting (ie the oxygen you provide with the way you're responding) - and so you're not going to be able to change this dynamic you have going on in your home. Your home is a tiny society and its system is stuck and dysfunctional - there is no magic solution. You are part of this dance, your children need to be shown new steps, and you won't. Why? Your neighbours might be inconvenienced for a while, sure - but what's the alternative? I promise you that if you steady your rein and see it through, their fighting will decrease and everyone will be happier. But it's going to take time, it won't show results for weeks or even months. It sounds like DS1 in particular might initially escalate to test if what is happening is real and will stick. You've got to dig in for the long haul. I bet there are loads of other factors rolled into this. Maybe one of you was parented this way, always being sent to rooms and excluded as punishment and blown up on the minute you stepped out of line. Maybe one of you has strong trigger feelings about respect and propriety from kids. Whatever it is, get curious and start truly watching, not reacting. When they fight, stop drop and breathe. What is each of them looking for from YOU via their behaviour? All behaviour is communication. I think your main issue is that you think they're communicating with each other by fighting. They're not, they're communicating with you. What are they trying to tell you? I bet it's, "will you still love me even when I'm awful?" and there's the test they are giving you, every day, and every time out and blow up and marching them around and lecture is proof to them, at their very tender age, that maybe you won't.

Error

https://www.peacefulparenthappykids.com/read/stop-drop-breathe-stay-calm-parenting

@mrsmumbles by removing all oxygen you mean letting them hash it out? I have said I will not subject my neighbours to that, it’s not fair, I am actually very considerate of the wider society I live in!

So much good advice here for you but I see a lot of excuses. You may feel like you have tried it all before but how long for? I often find parents say I’ve done that and dismiss something quickly. The children need a consistent approach I would say you are looking at roughly 6 weeks until you see a behaviour change and that’s not end of it that’s just the beginning!

Yes! This is maddening. I'll be very clear. They want the reaction you give them by fighting. It is what they expect and feel familiar with. It is providing DS1 in particular with something he needs. When you react the way you do, it perpetuates the cycle. Do you want to live like this for ever or subject your neighbours to a few weeks of noise whilst you reset your family system. Those are literally your only two options.

If it's during daytime then wouldn't it just come under normal domestic noise? I don't really see the problem, as long as your neighbours aren't night shift workers with sensitive hearing and newborn babies. If your boys know that you will leap in to try to keep the volume down then they are going to keep on racking up the noise because they know it's guaranteed to get in you involved.

Okay, if they are keeping it up after nine o clock at night or before eight in the morning, but during normal hours you should be fine to ignore the boys.

Also, out of everything I said in my post, that's the part you picked out to respond to?

Why is the comfort of your neighbours more important than resetting your relationship between and with your boys?

remind them of this next time. Tell them it's not fair they are allowed to scream when annoyed but you arent.

And find some therapy for them to control their feelings - DCs will often take advice and techniques for things like this from a 3rd party.

(also: where is your DH in all this? just passively putting up with it and letting you deal)

Given you’ve tried most things I would probably also follow the ‘let them get on with it’ scenario. If one gets hurt, so be it. They need to get it out of their system. The neighbours will cope, and they’ll probably only do it once or twice before it’s done and dusted.

I also agree with taking the oxygen out of the situation, if you stop responding it will become much less appealing to fight. I will often walk out from any bickering, it usually stops when they realise there is no positive outcome (the perceived taking of sides by a parent)

Keep them both really busy with (separate) activities. At 8 and 11 if they fight in the car and you're less than 2 miles from home, make them both get out and make their own ways home. Especially if it's raining!

My 2 never fought at all. They rarely engaged with each other. This continued into their teens and now into adulthood. They have both left home and don't speak to each other at all. No falling out, just that they have never been close.