For believing the drop in birth rate IS mostly because people who don't want children no longer have to have them

[CurdinHenry]

"Fertility experts" like Geeta Nargund in the news again insisting that "people still want to have children". Obviously some people wish they could have more children than they get to have. But it's never been a better world for people who are just not into it at all (or try one then realise it's not that much fun).

I don't think a survey asking people in vague terms if they'd like kids one day counts as proof of anything.

And as for the follow-on panic about the economy - isn't it time to stop applying 18th century rules? We have the technology to keep going with a shrinking population and the world is going to breathe a sigh of relief as our species gets a little less environmentally burdensome.

You are quite right.
Added with some people who do want children leave it too late, when historically this was very rare.
Other than that not much has changed. We don't have to, so we don't.

A lot of the people I know who don't have children wanted them but couldn't have them because of infertility or not having a partner or not being able to afford them. Infertility is becoming a lot more common, many of my friends are struggling and we needed IVF.

I think it’s a mix of factors but that’s certainly one of them. It’s acceptable now just to not want children because you’d rather pursue other things. Even if you’re in a relationship.

I was under the impression it was due to the people who had dc but had fewer then they wanted.

i think that is naive, an older population is sicker and that is expensive. Why would a smaller population that is older use less resources?

You are correct but there isn't just one reason why people are having less kids, there's a few reasons.

Another reason is that many more people are sticking at one child now - if you think about it, you need a 2 bed property for 1 child but if you go up to 2 you need a 3 bed, you might be able to get away with a 2 bed for same sex kids There is a BIG price difference between a 2 and a 3 bed property whether you rent or buy.

Money is another reason - extortionate housing and childcare costs.

Another reason people have just one child is that they have one, then the primary carer realises that their partner is unhelpful and that having more kids would fall mostly upon them. Obviously you wouldn't know they're unhelpful with the kids until you have them.

Climate change puts people off too. My kids are 30 now but I would never in a million years have brought kids into this world if I had known what was going to happen to the planet.

On the whole though you're right. It seems as though, when you give women choice, they choose not to have kids.

Surely that largely impacted in the 1970s and 1980s?

Yes, but there are also a lot of people who either a) can't afford them or b) don't want to due to the state of the world/ climate change etc.

Speaking specifically about the UK, I'm not sure that's right. Attitudes and access to abortion were similar 20 years ago IMO.

I would imagine its because to many people leave it to late and the choice is taken away. Its becoming more and more common for people not to have their first baby until they're 30/40 and fertility starts declining at 35

I think it's surely a mixture of

• People having children, but not as many as they'd like because it's too expensive / impractical
• People not wanting to have children at all, and less pressure from society being exerted on them to have them anyway
• People wanting to have children but leaving it too late and running into fertility issues

I'd have thought it was more common nowadays that couples who do want children aren't having them, either due to cost of living, fertility, climate reasons etc

Everyone I know who doesn’t have children has never wanted them.

There are also a lot more people who chose to have one child rather than the usual two. I think that’s also becoming more acceptable too, rather than the expectation to have multiples.

When you give women more choices (rights, education, etc.), women have fewer children. In rich countries it’s also more common to have fewer children, so it’s not necessarily a cost of living factor.

I think it's more that people are having less children per couple than not having any at all. Families of three, four, five children are becoming increasinly uncommon, I don't personally know anyone with more than two children.

Are you sure about that

Most of the people I know who don’t have children actively didn’t want them. I am only aware of one person who probably would have wanted children if things had been different.

Yes but with a side dose of infertility as well. I know SO many people going through this, it’s quite scary. Mostly for unexplained reasons, all of them are otherwise fit and healthy and non smokers etc

There is often (not always) an element of racism to this-panicking about the “great replacement theory)

Using my mum and dad as an example - 7 kids between them, my mum has never worked a full time job and mostly minimum wage e.g part time TA in a school. Dad was a joiner so decent pay but never a higher rate tax payer. They own a large 4 bed house in a desirable village, run 2 cars etc. Nowadays you usually need 2 x ft wages to maintain the same lifestyle they did, everyone is busy and stressed, something has to give. Plus all the other valid reasons like just not wanting to, access to contraceptives and abortion, climate etc.

Also misogyny “why aren’t women doing their duty?”

As a pp said, it is more acceptable now to just choose not to have children. I think it used to be the case that it was just what people did whereas now there is the choice - and contraception of course. I am child free - I didn't even really think about it. It just wasn't something I wanted to do.

Yes, there is a lot of research around this.

It is rare to see families with more than two children.
A third child needs that bigger car because of the safety seats.
Holidays and days out are set up for two adults and two children.
Housing is not easy even with two children if opposite sex or big age group - need that third bedroom.

I had fertility issues and for a while thought I might never be able to have children and I had always wanted a large family so I grieved that dream, but once I had my daughter I have to be honest and admit that I had no real strong desire for another child. Being a parent was so much harder than I had known it would be for a start. And also I like being able to pour my time and resources into one kid. She gets everything I have in me to give and I'm not perfect (lord knows I'm not!) but I do my best for her. I see friends, beautiful, brilliant women, trying to juggle hostile work environments with multiple childcare requirements, the needs and interests of multiple kids, and the question of paying for extracurriculars etc. it just looks really, really hard to have multiple children and to raise them well.