For believing the drop in birth rate IS mostly because people who don't want children no longer have to have them

[CurdinHenry]

"Fertility experts" like Geeta Nargund in the news again insisting that "people still want to have children". Obviously some people wish they could have more children than they get to have. But it's never been a better world for people who are just not into it at all (or try one then realise it's not that much fun).

I don't think a survey asking people in vague terms if they'd like kids one day counts as proof of anything.

But until comparatively recently contraception wasn’t reliable and easily available, so if you wanted to have sex, the ‘penalty’ was potentially unwanted pregnancies. Now you can have as much sex as you like and stay childfree. The two things have become uncoupled.

We have plenty of money and have one child by choice, and about one third of DS’s primary school class were only children — by no means only the non-affluent.

That is a very good point!!

Camilla Cavendish's book 'Generation Maybe' is quite a readable recent book on the different dimensions of this, that's probably partly why it's been in the news so much recently too e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2026/sep/17/spermageddon-greedy-jobs-and-abject-fear-why-birth-rates-are-plummeting-and-why-it-matters

How do you define 'afford' though? Generally speaking, wealth and fertility are inversely correlated, which is to say, the richer you are the fewer children you are likely to have. Perhaps it's people's ideas of what constitutes a decent middle class lifestyle which have changed.

I don’t buy the cost of living argument at all. My social circle is affluent middle class and almost everyone is either child-free or one-and-done.

It’s a lifestyle choice. People want to rule out / minimise drudgery and lack of freedom in their lives.

I think women do still want to have children but want to have them in good circumstances and can now make that decision for themselves. Today's issues include:

• Finding a man who actually wants to be a parent and will stay around and do his fair share
• The cost of housing - A two bed flat in the south east is at least £200k
• The cost of childcare - so the mother can return to work and retain her job and pension
• Later motherhood - more women take a degree, then need to establish their career, so don't plan motherhood until their 30s
• Infertility issues due to later motherhood.

If the world was full of rich, faithful, house trained men, who already owned family houses and could afford nannies, I'm sure the birth rate would rise. Unfortunately, it isn't.

I had one child in my 40s, having graduated, established my career, and bought a house. I would have had a second if his f had stayed around and done his fair share. He didn't.

Yes

There's another element to this. I have one dc who is currently at university. I am a single mum, who graduated in the last days of the grant system. I graduated with about £4.50 in my account. I was broke but I wasn't actually in debt.

I want ds to have the same chance I did or I'll feel I've failed him, which means covering his room and tuition fees. He has a job that will cover food and spending money.

It will be tight, the money will come from my pension but I'll pay his debt. I couldn't afford to do that for two children.

Maybe they had fertility problems and didn’t tell you.

Equally, maybe they were telling the truth.

There is now more of a stigma against those who have multiple children (especially if they are on benefit) than those who have no children by choice. Attention has shifted to the resources which parents of multiple children consume, the waste they generate and the fact that child free people disproportionately pay for all this.

With contraception I think we have the first generation who are facing harder economic times than their parents and have the choice to not have so many children.

It's a scary prospect having children when you can't give them a similar or better childhood because you can't afford to. Logically I know that people have had larger families in worse conditions than me but that does nothing to make me want to do so myself. I don't get how we are supposed to make people want to do this.

What does that mean, exactly?
Women in their 40s are no more likely to have difficulty conceiving than the same age women in the 1930s?
Because that's not really helping women in their 40s who want children but haven't had them yet, or those who had one child in their 30s and would prefer to have more.
Plus if you are pitting "infertility" against "fertility" i.e. "not having as many children as you'd like" against "number of children per women" they are not direct opposites.

@BigMartin I have two female friends who will happily tell everyone they were "one and done" but I happen to know that both wanted a second - one had IVF. but the subsequent rounds/frozen embryos didn't work and they stopped the process, one couple the husband's contract ended and they decided his employment was too unstable so they stopped trying.

Equally I have female colleagues with one child who are very open about not wanting a second at all, who are the main earner (or lone parent in one case).

But I know the first two and the lone parent very well, whereas I know the other two main earners much less well. Their decision may have been personal or it may have been financial and all other things being equal they would have had more children.

Most of the women I know do want to have children at some point but are having difficulty finding a suitable man to have them with. I sympathise.

You have completely misunderstood, what can is being kicked down the road? the birth rate has been below replacement rate for years and I haven’t argued to increase it….

there's already plenty of studies on this. When American childless adults (18-49) were asked by Pew why they didn't have children, the most popular answer at 57% was "I just don't want them" Pew Research (2024) obviously people in that group may change their minds but then you get the other reasons. Concern about the world, environment, thinking something else matters more to you, fnding a partner, and of course being able to afford it.

I was raised by a reluctant mother. I think the absolute best thing is that now we are not outwardly cajoling or pressuring women the way we used to because that results in a lot of pain and neglect. It's better that people stay child free or childless than bring an unwanted child into the world, ultimately

In my fairly large circle of friends, only 2 females have children. The others (30s - mid 40s) simply don't want them, and its not down to money, they and their partners/husbands just don't want them.

No country has managed to increase birth rates once below replacement rate even with incentives.

I never wanted children. I knew that when I was a child myself and never changed my mind (I'm in my 50s now).

Today I am very career focussed and enjoy spending my money without having to think about dependents. However, when I first started saying I never wanted kids, my mum told me I'd absolutely change my mind because it's not natural not to want them. Today she still thinks there is something wrong with me because I never had children and never regretted my decision.

Luckily society has changed and by and large I never felt pressure to justify my decision.

I think also we are more honest now, even with our own children, about how fucking hard parenting is.

My mother never said to me: If you have kids you will irreversible damage your physical health, financial health, mental health, career and probably your marriage as well. I've been very blunt with my children about those facts.

I would have had more but with the money I had, I decided to give the ones I have the best life I could, rather than having them grow up 'poor' and all getting less opportunities.

As someone old enough to be a grandparent now, part of me hopes that my children won't give me any grandchildren. I'd absolutely adore to have them and I'd be a fantastic grandma but the reality is, the UK/World is a shit show.

The housing around here is abysmal yet we're still cramming in more and more unvetted immigrants. There's a huge council housing crisis here/limited private lets and I just don't see where everyone is meant to live. As it is, I'm hoping I've gave mine a good step up into being able to afford a deposit to buy somewhere. I wouldn't have been able to do that if I had more children, so I'm glad I stopped when I did.

I also think people are becoming horrible. Then they're raising kids to be horrible. The amount of bullying and the rise of social media, kids have nowhere to hide if someone sets their sights on them. There's been two suicides from young teenagers here in the past two years, due to bullying. I worried enough about my own, I don't want to go through it with any grandchildren. I wish the world was a nicer place, I wish people were more considerate. I wish people raised better behaviour but between a lack of interest (having kids just for the benefit money/getting on the housing list) or both parents working full time that their kids half raise themselves... There's definitely been a huge decline in decency, imo, since I was younger.

I'd also worry alot if I had any granddaughters. The unvetted, random men have made me feel uncomfortable in my home town. There's going to be more to come too, no doubt. They've already had an effect on the secondary school girls, I've seen the videos of them being obviously followed by men in small groups, etc.

TLDR:
*The UK/world is a mess and I can't see it improving, so why would I want any more children to endure the downfall.

*There isn't enough money to be made to raise a big family to a decent standard.

*There isn't enough affordable housing available for them to live once old enough to move out.

*Not enough decent jobs for them. It's all good saying to move further afield but that also increases the house prices/rent prices.

*The community spirit here is changing due to kids being more feral and generally horrible to others. Then the little angels parents defend them saying 'let kids be kids' when someone mentions the chaos they're causing.

*The unvetted immigrants don't make me feel safe, I don't want a life of worrying about more than I need to.

@Dontlletmedownbruce that’s Irelands version of child benefit I believe? Many countries don’t means test, the UK didn’t in the past.

Very true , it would probably need massive incentives. That no country is going to do

Women in their 40s are no more likely to have difficulty conceiving than the same age women in the 1930s?
Because that's not really helping women in their 40s who want children but haven't had them yet, or those who had one child in their 30s and would prefer to have more.

The reality is that it is difficult for women to conceive and carry a baby to term in their 40s. Not impossible, but difficult, especially if the woman has not already had children. I'm sure you know this.

What have comments on this forum got to do with 'helping' women in this situation?