For believing the drop in birth rate IS mostly because people who don't want children no longer have to have them

[CurdinHenry]

"Fertility experts" like Geeta Nargund in the news again insisting that "people still want to have children". Obviously some people wish they could have more children than they get to have. But it's never been a better world for people who are just not into it at all (or try one then realise it's not that much fun).

I don't think a survey asking people in vague terms if they'd like kids one day counts as proof of anything.

Sorry, I was talking about the research on how giving women more opportunities, education and rights leading to a lower fertility rate.

Yes, any research done around opinions/thoughts/feelings will be flawed. It also depends on when they are asked. When younger people might say they want kids as it’s still expected, but when they get older they might decide they don’t want them for example. Same with if you asked women with children whether they would fewer or no children they might not answer how they really feel due to stigma.

Money and health/fertility are why people are not having as many children. I don't know many people who simply chose not to have any children but I know loads of people that only had 1 child due to health issues or people that stopped at 1 or 2 due to money.

Fertility is incompatible with modernity. The multitude of factors that are lowering birth rates (many of which have already been listed) are all part of modernity. As countries 'modernise' ( female education, displacement of population to cities etc.) the collapse in fertility follows.

...and the Amish shall inherit the Earth.

This is pure anecdata but talking to some younger women in my extended family who may well fit the criteria of people that say they would want children in future in a survey the reality of life and parenthood puts them off. They struggle with the dating market and are happier staying single until the right person comes along even if that's never. They also say that they are cynical with having to keep up full time jobs, pay large amounts of money for childcare and be tired all the time. They've seen their colleagues do this and it doesn't appeal.

I think they'd be open to having kids if they could find decent partners and have a work life balance but they don't want kids enough to have them despite the issues that concern them.

I think it’s many factors. Lots start trying later and it doesn’t happen and fertility is expensive. I have one child only because my son is profoundly autistic and not sure we could manage another. Cost is certainly a factor. Plus more social acceptance for choosing to be childless.

I think it's all of these and the data backs me up.

There is no reason why we should force/encourage/trick people into having more children than they want whether that number is zero or more. Luckily we are pretty much in a place where most people can decide to stick at zero, one or two.

But the gap between people's ideal number and actual number IS affecting the birth rate - it's not like 99% of those with zero or one child WANT zero or one child. There are a lot who really want more.

How could we help them? I'm guessing better attitudes to maternity leave, cheaper childcare, educate men on how to parent, educate everyone on fertility, better support for SEN so parents feel like they could have a second/third child if the first one has a disability (and that will help with care for the older one in old age too).

Having my single child was like a Brexit 52-48 thing, it was never an overwhelming urge, so I don't feel like a second either. And my son is easygoing, cheerful, healthy - nothing to put me off another.

But I really am happy that I am satisfied with one, because I'd struggle to ethically justify bringing another child into a polluted and crazy world. As it is, he'll at least have our concentrated dual income behind him to help out.

My MIL said when she was young adult it was just expected that she would get married (at 19) and have babies (early 20s). No real choice. And the people who didn't have children then were likely infertile

Nowadays, women have much more freedom of choice (even though society itself might still have the expectation of children, women have the ability to be able to push back on that)

I don’t think what you are saying can offend anyone because that’s how you feel, but you are assuming everyone feels the same way as you and this could come across as the egocentricity you are wanting to avoid.

I have children and my feelings towards others hasn’t changed. I haven’t got less egocentric (possibly more as I have less time to pander to others!), and if anything I’ve got more intolerable.

In another life, would I have children again? Probably not. I don’t think that’s an uncommon opinion either. I don’t understand why sacrifice of having to buy a cheaper home than I could have without children benefits anyone? I can’t think of any sacrifices I’ve made to have children that would have any bearing on others. I’m struggling to think of any sacrifices I’ve really made in the first place!

I haven't read the full thread, I have read some of it. So far, no one has said much about men.

Me, I didn't meet someone who wanted to have children with me till I was nearly 40.

There seem to be a lot of men who don't want commitment and quite like the whole current dating set up via apps, which could go on indefinitely without ending up in a long term relationship. I feel quite lucky that I haven't needed to navigate the world of Tinder and Bumble etc. It might suit some people, but I think it probably wouldn't have suited me.

I had 2 children in the end, but if I had met someone in my early 20s, I would probably have had more,

I found it hard enough to have 2 children with 2 parents committed to their well being. It is an important consideration. at the very least, whether you are going to be the only person doing the breadwinning and caring for your family.

And maybe a dealbreaker for many. "I can't do this on my own".

A lot of women might think, I would love to have children - but not on my own. If I hadn't met DH, I might well be one of the people who didn't have children but would have liked the opportunity.

That’s the trouble with anecdotal data, you’ll always find another group who is the opposite. My friends have none or one by choice. None of them struggle financially and they have no health issues. There is a lot of data to suggest that wealthier women have fewer babies, but this could be down to a variety of factors.

I'm torn on this. On one hand I'm really delighted that people can choose not to have children now and that choice for the most part is respected. At the same time it saddens me that people who do want children and lots of them often have to restrict themselves to one or two for financial reasons. Often they are people who would be excellent parents. Another major factor is mothers age. Women in stable relationships often don't ttc until late 30s because they need to focus on work. We all know for the most part your career plateaus the moment you announce your first pg and that moment gets pushed back year by year as you aspire to reach a certain career or salary level. Ttc a few years younger means forsaking the career. Also, when I was young there was so much talk of women finally having a choice regarding career but I feel those days are gone too the other way. Do you know anyone who gave up work when they were married to be a housewife? I never heard of anyone. Even women who plan on having babies and being SAHMs are expected to work their asses off for years beforehand. Those that are SAHMs are often subject to prejudice and not respected. In my experience this comes more from other women than from men. They are judged every bit as harshly as a career working in the 1970s. In a way nothing has changed but we've just changed the goal posts, the only real change I see is the acceptance of someone saying they don't want children.

The egocentric I mean was if everyone only really has to care about themselves then the way they feel about society changes . Not that everyone without children is egocentric 😊
I would have childrenagin by the way , even more than I have now , I had my last 3 very late because I was convinced 1 was plenty and I wish I had time for more .
And ye I know not everyone thinks the same or feels the same , I would never want to speak for others .

The delayed commitment issue also has a big impact on fertility. If, in our society, people are getting together in their late 30s rather than their early 20s, there is a much bigger risk of infertility for the couple at that point in time. Also, if there is a longer time period in which the couple is fertile, say 20 years rather than 7 years, then that greatly increases the chances of having children over that period.

The people I know who havent got children didn't have them because they have fertility issues and not because they dont want them. Infertility is so common.

I truly believe government could help people who want more kids , yes those who have none will complain but that’s how society works . Better maternity leave , more in work protection for parents , tax r liege and free childcare for pule make sure those who want children have them .

I agree. I'm always really surprised when people suggest it's climate change/the political situation. I've had 3 children and and climate change/politics wasn't even on my radar around conception.

People have been having children in times of war and political unrest forever. My parents were born during the 2WW, I'm sure babies are still being born in Ukraine etc

Sex/desire and the urge to procreate will always override politics/climate change imo.

@drspouseyes and maybe financial supports for parents. In Ireland there's a universal supplement per child, the equivalent of about £100 per month per child. So triple that for 3 kids and so on. Twins get 1.5 of singles so a twin mother gets support for 3 kids rather than the 2. This is paid into your bank account from registration of the birth so it's not applied for. Arguably universal payments aren't fair as very wealthy people claim it too, but it could be a tax deduction for wealthier people and a high threshold for this bracket with anyone on lower on middle income getting the supplement. It makes a massive difference if you truly want to go from one to two or so on. It certainly doesn't cover the cost of educating a child into their 20s or buying a bigger home but it covers extra groceries, clothes, activities etc.

One of the factors. Others include NHS reports showing how dangerous giving birth in UK is in comparison to other countries, men being the men they are today, porn, gender pay gap still ongoing, AI worries of annhilation/human extinction, job insecurity, climate change and lunatics in power of the richest counyries in the world.

This is true. More and more, young people simply aren't pursuing relationships and are happy being single. Especially young women. There is also a lot of mistrust between the genders. Obviously this is going to impact on birth rates, but there are plenty of other factors too.

I would say reproducing yourself is one of the most egocentric things a person can do. For the vast majority of people, it's an entirely selfish act.

certain feelings only come with having children , sorry if this offends anyone but as someone who was convinced I didn’t what any , having them changed my whole view on life and the true meaning of it .

Why would anyone be offended? You may not have wanted children at one point, but clearly later on you did. However, some of us don't want children. At all. We manage to find 'true meaning' in life without having to make babies.

I know a few young women who desperately want children but simply can’t afford to have them.

As in, they would be unable to keep themselves and DC housed and fed from their wages.

And there’s a close correlation in developing countries between the first generations of women getting an education and having fewer children. They have more power, more economic freedom, and they are using that to exercise their choice to reproduce less.

Infertility is no more prevalent than historically when adjusted for age. The poorest people have the most children. So it's not lack of money either.
It's choice. And thats fine.

YUBA. In recent years most couples have two children and there was a small percentage of people who remained childless for a variety of reasons. Therefore, surely the cause of the drop is couples only being able to afford one child, rather than a doubling of what was initially a very small percentage?