To think that not believing in patriarchy is a deal breaker?

[LemurLederhosen]

I was having a little, semi-lighthearted rant in the kitchen the other day about how long it has taken for me to get the help I need to deal with some really awful perimenopausal symptoms. I’ve been off work for months and despite keeping on and on at my GP, only now have I been referred for a HRT appt. I made the age old comment “if men went through all this they’d have been treated straight away, but that’s patriarchy for you”.

DP then simultaneously eye rolled, exhaled and scoffed the word “patriarchy”. So I asked him why. He told me that clearly I’d been brainwashed by all the rubbish on social media into hating men.

I was shocked. So I said I don’t hate men, patriarchy is damaging to men and women so to eradicate it would make a better world for everyone. What are you on about? He basically implied that it’s all a load of bollocks and that I’m only now going on about it because of social media.

I was genuinely shocked. It was as if he thinks that a load of angry women on social media have invented this concept in the last decade? I reminded him that patriarchy is a deeply ingrained system of oppression and has been around for centuries. I reminded him that I specialised in women’s studies at university (he knows this!) and that my PhD in domestic abuse (he also knows this) wouldn’t have existed in the same way without patriarchy at the helm. I’ve always been passionate about equality (for all I might add) and that not only do I take raising our 2 DDs very seriously, but more so the way we raise our DS to feel free and able to express his feelings and emotions in a positive way. He has his moments for sure. But he’s 7!

I’m just genuinely shocked that after 17 years together I’ve only just worked out that he doesn’t actually believe in patriarchy. Is this a deal breaker? I suppose I’ve kept a lid on a lot of my views - mainly because I get to exercise them a lot in the work that I do so never feel the need to “go off on one” at home, unless I’m responding to a news story or something… but now not only am I not at work but I’m also perimenopausal so in full unfiltered/ unmasked mode!

All the other times he’s huffed when I’ve made similar comments I just thought was his social conditioning making him respond that way so I have challenged him and eventually he’s gone quiet… but now I know he flat out thinks its made up bullshit I mean what am I meant to do? He’s a good person, but clearly has never had his world view challenged as much as I’m challenging him now? Maybe he’s just been humouring me all these years - which make me really quite angry. I just don’t know what to think… or maybe he was trying to wind me up?! Which again isn’t good… or funny…

I'd be more concerned about the fact he clearly thinks you are stupid and blindly follow social media trends. He does not respect your academic credentials. It's one thing to disagree but another to eye-roll, scoff and mock.

He doesn't just not believe in patriarchy, he's a misogynist.

I think that is a huge leap for you or OP to get to that from an eye roll. Without asking the husband, I guess we'll never know what his actual views are. My inference is that he's probably bored of the lectures and the constant linking of any misfortune an inconvenience to a nebulous concept of patriarchy. I don't think a "here we go again" type eye roll means he has no respect for her and is a raging misogynist.

My inference is that he's probably bored of the lectures and the constant linking of any misfortune an inconvenience to a nebulous concept of patriarchy

Exactly, as I posted before, I think the patriarchy is a useful concept to describe systemic discrimination of women historically… Rather it’s using “patriarchy” as the default and unchallengeable excuse for any issue that affects women, and in a way that’s clearly a snide dig at men in general, that’s tiresome and would lead to an eye roll from me too.

I think telling a doctor in the field of domestic abuse that they must have picked up their information on gender equality off social media is a bit more than an eye roll, it's completely invalidating her credentials and implying she has no critical thinking skills.

Can you imagine that a Womens studies course would ever be balanced?

I am quite an intense and well-read person, also with a keen interest in women’s studies, but I have learned that many (most?)people do not want to have weighty discussions about issues after a hard day at work.
Men are often not interested in the patriarchy and women’s issues. He is not the right person to be having this conversation with. He won’t be interested in going into detail about either your physical issues or the wider patriarchy. In the same way that you are not interested in his sports injuries or Match of The Day. He would rather have a fun conversation with you than feel berated about his role in the patriarchy.

Living with someone ill is also very taxing so perhaps the eye roll (which was very rude and I would pull him up on) is related to this.

The ‘if men had to deal with x thing that women have to deal with it would have been solved ages ago, ty patriarchy’ has been a meme on SM (FB, IG, Pintrest, X) for ages. The classic is “if men had menopause, it would be treated as a medical/national emergency”

It is lazy and snide and I would expect a real degreed professional to know better than to present something satirical from popular culture as if it were fact to her DH and then get upset when he calls bullshit.

The idea (which is heavily supported by a large body of research) that "women's issues" are not given the same attention and support as "men's issues" predates social media by decades. If you only heard of it via social media then you must not have been paying attention. Try educating yourself.

Indeed based on that petulant application of logic, there would be a psychiatrist clinic on every street corner to deal with male mental health issues… clearly there isn’t.

I haven’t RTFT but I’m a little taken aback by you wondering aloud whether this is something to end a relationship over!!

No I can't.
I don't even take it seriously as an academic subject to be honest.

How condescending…

Based on Government figures, £727m is spent treating breast cancer compared with £93m treating prostate cancer, so that PROVES that the NHS are discriminating against men big time!

Of course, those figures don’t do anything of the sort as the situation is a good deal more nuanced and complex… But it’s precisely this kind of lazy application of statistics that is used to PROVE that the patriarchy is discriminating against women….

And it’s worse than that, no one is allowed to even challenge or question it, because if you dare do that you must be either a man or have internalised misogyny… You just have to accept it as “the truth”, as god forbid that those women that want to wallow in self-pity and victimhood aren’t validated at every turn.

And it’s even worse than that!… Questioning the narrative isn’t just frowned upon, but it’s grounds for divorce and breaking up families!

Feminism has largely been good for the world, but my god, it has an intolerant, extremist dark side that is apparent on MN.

From what I've read, he's had an opinion for years and you've had this prevalent, relevant and real one recently and he's up in arms? Yep, deal breaker for me, especially as we get older, we tend to become more intolerant, so yes, I couldn't see myself into old age with someone that doesn't believe in a womans trauma in just being a female. I hope he is reincarnated as one of the 'less suffering'

He sounds a bit dim. Did you just marry him because you fancied him, and it's only now your libido's gone you're seeing him as he is?

, I couldn't see myself into old age with someone that doesn't believe in a womans trauma in just being a female.

And I imagine most men won’t want to be with someone with such a victim complex!

My husband gets uncomfortable when I talk about patriarchy. He’s not a person who sees women as less, he would never want a woman to feel uncomfortable about him. He firmly believes men and women should be treated equally. But there’s something about it that makes him feel like I’m blaming him. Like because he has a penis he’s the problem.

If you think about it from his perspective: he's part of the Patriarchy because he is a man. So of course he doesn't want to believe in it. Patriarchy clearly exists but what is at debate is the nature of it I guess. Maybe just talk it out with him more, like what his actual views on it are. If every woman divorced her husband because he didn't believe in Patriarchy, was a bit sexist etc then truly none of us would be married at all. This has been the dominant system for thousands of years of human existence. It's like asking a goldfish: "how's the water" (reference the famous speech). He doesn't even know he is in it because it's all he knows. And for most women it's all we know too.

I think things like this are the reason any discussion will get dismissed as "being brain washed by TicToc" because so many examples here are actually social media talking points with no understanding of the reality. Old banks in teh UK have records of women having their own bank accounts in the 18th century, I have documents of a grandmothers back account from the 1930s, yet you hear people on social media talking like women were first getting basic baking in the 1980s. When the first credit card was launched in the UK it was offered to both man and women. Yet, you hear the opposite. The actual difference was related to credit and how liability worked and what that did to women's access in a particular window in time.

The reality is all discussion is so stuffed with weird claims it misses any real issues and the ability to have a sensible conversation about what actually needs to happen. I think the vast number of claims is because it is easy to complain about a generalised "culture" and demand a vague "cultural change" rather then running through "problem X exists and we need to make change Y to fix it" over and over.