To think that not believing in patriarchy is a deal breaker?

[LemurLederhosen]

I was having a little, semi-lighthearted rant in the kitchen the other day about how long it has taken for me to get the help I need to deal with some really awful perimenopausal symptoms. I’ve been off work for months and despite keeping on and on at my GP, only now have I been referred for a HRT appt. I made the age old comment “if men went through all this they’d have been treated straight away, but that’s patriarchy for you”.

DP then simultaneously eye rolled, exhaled and scoffed the word “patriarchy”. So I asked him why. He told me that clearly I’d been brainwashed by all the rubbish on social media into hating men.

I was shocked. So I said I don’t hate men, patriarchy is damaging to men and women so to eradicate it would make a better world for everyone. What are you on about? He basically implied that it’s all a load of bollocks and that I’m only now going on about it because of social media.

I was genuinely shocked. It was as if he thinks that a load of angry women on social media have invented this concept in the last decade? I reminded him that patriarchy is a deeply ingrained system of oppression and has been around for centuries. I reminded him that I specialised in women’s studies at university (he knows this!) and that my PhD in domestic abuse (he also knows this) wouldn’t have existed in the same way without patriarchy at the helm. I’ve always been passionate about equality (for all I might add) and that not only do I take raising our 2 DDs very seriously, but more so the way we raise our DS to feel free and able to express his feelings and emotions in a positive way. He has his moments for sure. But he’s 7!

I’m just genuinely shocked that after 17 years together I’ve only just worked out that he doesn’t actually believe in patriarchy. Is this a deal breaker? I suppose I’ve kept a lid on a lot of my views - mainly because I get to exercise them a lot in the work that I do so never feel the need to “go off on one” at home, unless I’m responding to a news story or something… but now not only am I not at work but I’m also perimenopausal so in full unfiltered/ unmasked mode!

All the other times he’s huffed when I’ve made similar comments I just thought was his social conditioning making him respond that way so I have challenged him and eventually he’s gone quiet… but now I know he flat out thinks its made up bullshit I mean what am I meant to do? He’s a good person, but clearly has never had his world view challenged as much as I’m challenging him now? Maybe he’s just been humouring me all these years - which make me really quite angry. I just don’t know what to think… or maybe he was trying to wind me up?! Which again isn’t good… or funny…

Absolutely. I've made this point before. The stereotypes that have men as the strong, rational copers in life and women as weak, fragile and emotional were not created by women and don't serve our interests. Being permitted a little cry now and again is scant compensation for the assumption that men are better suited to run the world on account of their level headed resilience.
The stereotypes were created by men to secure themselves as best fit to rule. The fact that this comes with expectations they can't always meet is not women's fault.

I don't really give a toss to be honest.

All I know is that if women expect men to be just like them when it comes to sharing feelings etc then they won't fancy them if they do and the infrastructure of the world will fall apart.

For all this 'patriarchy' bullshit, it is still men doing the physically dangerous jobs.

I'm not sure so much it's a deal breaker, but can you delve into it? I think the best thing in these scenarios is to be curious about why he feels that way, don't badger, don't lecture. Find a way to have a conversation in which maybe you can start to get into 'the Patriarchy' isn't a way to 'have a go at him' or any bloke for 'being a man', in fact it's something that's bad for men as well.

I would not be in a relationship with such a man. At best thick and at worst... well. YANBU. Get rid OP.

Men do the physically dangerous jobs (sometimes, there are multiple examples of women harmed in jobs we don't class as 'dangerous') precisely because of this 'patriarchy BS'.
Not all societies have been modelled around women staying safe while men do the derring do. It hasn't even always been the case in our own history.
Men doing the dangerous things came about due to patriarchy, because protection enables control.

Your polarised statements here are very odd. Are you a timid, weepy sort of woman or an uncommunicative strongman married to one? I'm struggling to understand how an adult in this day and age has maintained such a comic-book view of life.

Dangerous occupations: I'm not posting Google's reply because it's full of additional details, but you might try asking your favourite AI "Are typically male 'dangerous' jobs more risky than pregnancy & childbirth?"

No I'm not timid or weepy at all. Just one for low tolerance for bullshit.

You cannot reasonably expect men to have the ability to shut down their sense of self-preservation and the attendant emotions in order to carry out dangerous jobs THEN instantly turn into Mr In-Touch-With- His-Emotions.

I'm sure that Margaret Thatcher would have agreed with me. She was not timid or weepy.

Nice bitchy comment from you, though.
To be expected I suppose.

Patriarchy. To be clear patriarchy is not men. It’s a system. Socially constructed centuries ago in order to control people - men and women - but with men in the main benefiting from it. It thrives on power. It is deeply ingrained. Everyone is impacted - they were then and we are now. We all need to work together to challenge it and we will all benefit if we do.

Only around 15% of men are in occupations classed as high risk. And even in these occupations the risk is low as only 0.2% of men will be killed at work.
Higher by some margin than women of course and a cause for concern. However, it needs to be seen in the context that 80% of workplace fatalities involve human error, including error on the part of the deceased.
I certainly don't think this points to men in general facing everyday conflicts between workplace danger and bravery and domestic emotional vulnerability.
The typical working man faces no greater danger than a paper cut and is required to show no greater heroism than facing his boss to explain why he's not delivered the expected performance.

What you have said makes zero sense.

First of all, we don’t live in matriarchal system so no - we can’t blame male suicide on that. Based on what matriarchy even is it’s not something that would or should lead to greater male suicides anyway.
Matriarchy isn’t equivalent to patriarchy! False equivalence!

See also - difference in men’s right movement and women’s right movement!

However yes we do live in a patriarchy where until relatively recently in world history women weren’t given equal rights and have been badly mistreated in health historically. And under that system women’s health is still under researched and sidelined . So yes there’s a clear link.

I mean…are you really comparing the deliberate lack of research into women’s health which can only be systemic to the fact more males are dying by suicide? This is incredibly foolish.

Also, women actually attempt suicide at higher rates. They are just less “successful” because of the type of methods they tend to employ! Another reason why what you said is complete nonsense.

after reading your posts I really believe you haven’t researched your argument properly. You have the basic premise but grasping at straws, I agree with your DH that it sounds like you’ve just picked up a load of stuff on social media. There are real issues that you have only a high level view of. ‘The Patriarchy’ isn’t a catch all phrase for everything you have raised and also has many meanings.

Exactly this! If anything men have told me that women (girlfriends, female friends, sisters, mothers) are more likely to offer a listening ear and comfort to men who are struggling than their fellow males (dad, brother, male friends) and be supportive and kind when they cry.

It’s their fellow men who are ridiculing them for showing any emotion other than anger, and struggling to take part in any serious conversations regarding emotions.

Not saying that all men are like this btw but under the patriarchy far too many are.

And instead of them reflecting on that and trying to change the system, we got the uptick in red pill/Andrew Tate podcasts blaming women for all their ills under a system that disproportionately favours men.

I’ve just read through this thread and see I probably needn’t have bothered responding to that poster earlier. Because either they are a woman, so far gone in internalised misogyny or an angry bitter man.

@Notagayne

mean…are you really comparing the deliberate lack of research into women’s health which can only be systemic to the fact more males are dying by suicide? This is incredibly foolish.

Apart from some misapplied stars taken out of context, where’s the evidence that,
not only is there a lack of research into women’s health issues, but that it’s deliberate… as though the “evil patriarchy” makes a conscious decision to restrict research in this area.

Oh, @SummerAsh.

No-one has said, implied or suggested patriarchy is a deliberate cabal. It doesn't need to make conscious decisions. The male advantage / default human / superiority is deeply, deeply ingrained. That's the point.

Put your straw man away, its straw dick is showing.

It seems to me that you're not doing too badly out of the patriarchy.

You are currently off sick-presumably receiving sick pay- for menopausal issues.

You have the ability to consider leaving a man over something which many-including myself- would consider to be really trivial.

Tell me again, how exactly is the patriarchy holding you back?

I think a lot of the issues is that "patriarchy " like "capitalism", socialism" "liberalism" are concepts and tackling it is a huge step. This is why a bite approach is best.

The issue is Patriarchy in the UK is one thing, patriarchy in Iran is different and in other countries as well.

All I know is that if women expect men to be just like them when it comes to sharing feelings etc then they won't fancy them if they do and the infrastructure of the world will fall aparT

Speak for yourself.

Why gender that? I dislike people who “fall apart over everything”. Whether it’s a man or woman behaving like that makes no difference.

No, women do not attempt suicide at higher rates annually. It is roughly equal.
The proportion of adults aged 16 to 74 who had attempted suicide in the past year appears to have increased, from 0.5% in 2000 (95% CI 0.4, 0.7) to 1.0% in 2023/4 (CI 0.7, 1.4). The same upward trend can be observed for both males (0.5% CI 0.3, 0.8) in 2000; 1.0% (CI 0.6, 1.6) in 2023/4) and females (also 0.5% (CI 0.3, 0.9) in 2000; 1.0% (CI 0.6, 1.5) in 2023/4). Confidence intervals around these estimates overlap, so caution is warranted. - NHS

https://digital.nhs.uk/data-and-information/publications/statistical/adult-psychiatric-morbidity-survey/survey-of-mental-health-and-wellbeing-england-2023-24/suicidal-thoughts-suicide-attempts-and-self-harm

In addition, men and women employ the same types of methods in the same order of popularity. It is not true that men choose more lethal methods in the UK. What you have said is true in the USA where firearms are more likely to be used in a suicide than a murder.

See Table 11
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/datasets/suicidesintheunitedkingdomreferencetables

Over the 17 years, has he treated you and other women in his life well? Or has he been sexist, prejudiced, abusive, insulting etc.

Personally, for me, opinions are nice, but actions are important. If he treats women equally and well in his life, then I could forgive a difference in how we view/define things in society.

It reminds me of some of the older men in my life.. they scoff at feminism, but then you look at their lives, and their wives are in charge of everything, they do anything for their daughters, have had and fully respected female bosses etc. I kind of feel like for them the anti feminist chat is a bit of a bravado coping strategy for a group of men who deep down know the world has changed.

(I'd rather have it that way than the other way around.. the type of guy who says all the right feminist and progressive things but then secretly holds awful views of women and ends up treating them like shit... Which I've certainly known a few of)

Your post is just brazen gaslighting,

I was responding to@Notagayne said this “…are you really comparing the deliberate lack of research into women’s health ”.

where she stated clearly that she felt the lack of research was deliberate….

Ironically it also misogynistic for presuming that all women have to have your exact viewpoint otherwise they must be men…

A lot of people disagree that getting and staying pregnant is a healthcare priority.

If men got pregnant abortion pills would be sold on machines on every corner like candy and soda.

Well it’s a good job they aren’t then as that would be appalling.