to not want ds, 9, to attend the sex education lessons at school?

[fircone]

It's just that he is only a little boy. He is the youngest in the year and is completely un-streetwise. His friends' mothers are unhappy about these lessons too.

I'm not Victoria Gillick (remember her, anyone?) and I would be happy for information to be provided at the end of Year 6 before they move up to secondary school, but I strongly feel that at nine years old this is going to be all too much.

I know that there is the brigade who insist that children must be aware of everything from the earliest age, but I am happy for children to stay children for as long as possible.

Totally right greenE. I'm going to change my name to " parents have little faith in teachers"

it crops up again and again on mn and in real life.

DS1 (10 yrs) has had a couple of sex-ed lessons recently and has been asking DH and I some really intelligent and appropriate questions.

I think it's good that info about periods, menopause, hormone changes for boys and girls etc is being taught at an age when he can begin to understand it and, most importantly, before his hormones kick in and he gets too giggly/embarrassed to listen.

Wish I'd had the same teaching at his age.

I agree that if you opt out your child will probably hear a (totally skewed)version of it anyway.

At 9, my neighbour (also 9!) told me that the man goes 'to the toilet' up the woman! I believe that for another year or two.

COME ON! Let them learn what really happens from a syllabus that has been planned by education professionals in that field. It may not be on a parr with what's taught in scandinavia (don't know) but it's going to be better than what Vicky Butler aged 9 told me

ffs

Because I am in a good mood, having just returned from my daughter's school play (The Tempest (yes, by William Shakespeare)) in which she played a good speaking part, I shall refuse to rise to the suggestion that my child has deep psychological problems. fwiw I think you're all nuts to tell your eight year olds about masturbation and sex between consenting adults, but that's my opinion.

Also, I am a bloody teacher and absolutely do not feel that it is the states job to teach people about relationships (and yes, sex is a relationship). Relationships is what you learn from life and the people around you. Sex is not just about the mechanics, which IS what is taught in schools. I want my children to view sex not as the meaningless recreational past-time it is portrayed in the media (and peddled through sex ed lessons), but as a part of a relationship with another human being.

but they are taught abotu relationships. The first module is 'feelings'.

Thought we'd established that!

agree with you combustiblelemon about the relationships education (that will inevitably include sex in its natural setting), and the pressure for girls in particular to be sexualised earlier and earlier (hair curling and makeup etc...)

hahaha "Module"!

Oh. You were serious.

That is precisely my problem with it. It is a huge and complex subject, reduced in the national curriculum to bite-size chunks of required learning. That's really not how I want my children to view their relationships with very significant others ("Oh yes, empathy, we did this at school")

Sex ed doesn't mean they are going to start having sex. My guess is your 9 year-old knows all about it anyway.

I am SURE that they are going to be told about advertisers using sex to sell, and to be themselves and not do anything they don't want to do.

And if they're not told that, then well you fill in the gaps yourself. They'll learn some of it twice and you can stress the important issues yourself.

ok chapter then. Or lesson or talk.

why are you over analysing this to the point of chasing your own tail, needlessly, pointlessly.

You are not the OP though are you? are you also going to take your chld out of the sex ed class?

If she were in the state system I would entirely consult her regarding her consent. If she wanted to she could. As I have said many times before, she knows about periods, she knows about growing breasts, she knows the basics of reproduction. She has not learned any of this at school, but gleaned it over the years as and when she was ready for it. As far as what exactly will happen when her periods start, what it will feel like, how to dispose of her protection, etc, etc, etc... as far as I'm concerned that is absolutely not up to the school, that is my department. I am about to make sure my 13 yr old fully understands it all as she will probably start her periods within a few months.

ok. My approach must seem too trusting or too half-hearted to you, but I'm just going to go with the flow, fill in any gaps, and stress the things I feel are important.

I wouldn't mind SEEING a copy of what they're taught though.

Exactly greenelizabeth...still curious what reduced duchesse's otherwise well adjusted dd to a hysterical wreck curled in the foetal position under a table for 30 mins after a lesson about periods, particularly as she already knew about periods
FWIW I haven't told my 11 year old dd about masturbation although we have discussed sex between consenting adults because she asked. I would tell her about masturbation if she wanted to know.

As I said earlier, our school lends the video out to parents if they would like to see it first, then they can make an informed choice.
And I repeat what I said earlier about her hearing it all whether you want her to or not, duchesse, the minute they all set foot in the playground.

I have always answered questions as they crop up and tryed to be as matter a fact as poss. Periods are just something that happens to ladies in our house and my boys are aware of that to. Obviously pregnant and giving birth are all normal too. In fact my eldest two were about for the birth of last baby, as they will this time. Maybe the op finds it embarresing the son can not of got to nine and remained that "green" !

Duchesse. Having looked at your profile I notice that your dcs attend what appears to be a small independant school. Maybe at her school your daughter is less likely to be exposed to playground gossip and incorrect information about sex. My dd has yet to be taught about condoms, intercourse etc. by the school, she has had a lesson with the school nurse about puberty which I was happy about. We had already discussed the subject anyway. Other stuff she has picked up from her peers in the playground and as such I was glad I had already given her some of the facts and developed a relationship with her that she felt able to talk to me about what some of her peers had told her. So yes she does know about condoms becaue someone at school had told her and she wanted to know the facts and not the playground version. Her teacher has not demonstrated putting condoms on bananas! In year 6 the only formal sex education she has had was about puberty and I was most definately given the opportunity to opt out if I wished.
I feel you are in a very privilidged situation if you have complete control over what she is exposed to with regards to sex education. In the state system you would have little control over what she was exposed to in the playground and as such I have approached the subject at a younger age than maybe you think is appropriate. I would rather she knew the facts than have myths such as you can't get pregnant the first time/ standing up or masturbation makes you go blind etc.,
FWFW I never meant to suggest that your daughter had deep psychcological problems. I'm sorry if any of my posts have implied that. I was more concerned as to the content of the lesson she attended. I would be very worried if anything taught by my dd's school had that effect on her.

"If she were in the state system I would entirely consult her regarding her consent. If she wanted to she could. As I have said many times before, she knows about periods, she knows about growing breasts, she knows the basics of reproduction. She has not learned any of this at school, but gleaned it over the years as and when she was ready for it."

My point is that in the state system she would not have the luxury of not being exposed to this info at school in the playground. She wouldn't be able to opt out like you can the formal lessons should that be your choice. She quite simply would not have the option of waiting until she was ready.

When I was at (state) school, many children tried to tell me about sex and teach me rude words. I didn't want to know about sex until I was about 12 so it all passed me by entirely. If I had been interested in it, I read voraciously and had unfettered access to books both at home and at school and could have easily found out if I had wanted to. fwiw I do not think it is ignorance that causes teenage pregnancy these days (who after all can actually avoid exposure to information about sex?) but the desire for closeness with another human that starts with the intimacy with a partner (however potentially misguided) and continues at times with intimacy with a new baby. My point about teen pregnancy (which I suspect is why sex ed is being delivered earlier and earlier) is that it would be more avoidable if teens did not lose intimacy and closeness with their significant adults.

Many teens in this country are bringing each other up (in fact this was re-quoted in the context of knife crime in London recently, with many teens getting the only positive experiences in their lives from their immediate peers- ie gangs) Recent studies revealed that 50% of parents felt that 11 was no longer a child. So many of the pupils I taught in secondary school had not a single toy, only playstations and dvd players, even at 11 and 12. I find this incredibly sad.

Also FAR too many young children in this country are allowed to watch violent films and video games (many 11 yr olds have seen 18 rated films; many 5/6 yr olds have seen 15 rated films- ask your children how many of their peers at school have- you will be shocked) I think it completely topsy-turvy that is deemed ok for a 12 yr old to see rather high levels of violence, but not be exposed to sex scenes.

I agree the causes of teenage pregnancy are far more complex than ignorance. It is far more complex than a need for intimacy too.

It is apparant that you are unable or unwilling to explain the content of the lesson your dd attended so I will leave that alone. It just makes me sad that a school would provoke such a reaction in a child and I feel sorry that your dd had to endure such an experience at school.

I will now go and lament my dds lost childhood and try to work out how I could have gagged her peers and protected her innocence.

There are some really weird assumptions in this thread. Sending your child to a non-state school is not going to mean that they will be "protected" from learning about sex or somehow prevented from growing up. Why do people feel that this would be a good idea anyway? Myths about sex etc are not soley the perogative of "rough" children, which seems the sub text here - my child is far too nice to know about sex FGS.

I spent a fair amount of time in my early teens curled up in a foetal position because my periods hurt so much, but I can't think why knowing about reproduction, tampons etc (the probable content of a talk to 12/13 yr olds) would affect someone in that way.

Of course the reasons for young girls to get pregnant are myriad, but if you talk to those who work with these kids ignorance is still a major factor, as is low self esteem, low expectancy of life prospects and other factors. All these things should be addressed as part of a good PHSE course and of course they should be part of parenting too.

I really don't understand your comments about children seeing inappropriate films. The rating system is there to protect children. Are you arguing that the classification system allows too much violence and not enough sex? That's how it reads which is a bit bizarre considering your views on keeping talks about sex (and periods) as late as possible. That some parents allow their children to watch unsuitable films isn't really relevant to this thread is it?

Nooka I agree. I was merely puting forward a suggestion that duchesse had been able to control her dd's access to sex education until she felt she was mature enough to cope because of the type of education she is receiving and her peers. Because she surely wouldn't be able to do that in the school my dd attends. Kids will discuss sex in the playground...I couldn't go in to school and stipulate who my dd mixes with based on their sexual knowledge and likelyhood to discuss their knowledge with my dd. One of dd's friends was present at the home birth of her younger brother and described the event in detail to dd who was fascinated and curious. Both healthy and natural responses imo and clear indicators that she was mature enough to take that info on board.
I appreciate that children mature at different rates but the state system has to cater for the majority whilest giving those who have really strong convictions the option to opt out which, in my experience, they are bound to do.
Whether or not people are of the opinion that education does not prevent teenage pregnancy ignorance certainly doesn't help either. Personally I believe a good PHSE course handled in an age appropriate way can only be a good thing but also accept that others may not share my views.

I guess what I meant was that nice middle class children from good homes going to an independent school may also know all about sex, and may think it an interesting topic of conversation with their friends. I wonder why the teacher in question thought that duchesses daughter needed to go to a talk designed for older children in any case - all goes to show we can't control everything in life even if we think we can by choosing the private route for school.

The reason she ended up being swept into the little group receiving the periods info was that she is in a mixed age class (8-13 yr olds), is near the top of the class in ability and hangs out with the 12-13 yr olds by inclination. These 12-13 yr olds are very natural and unspoiled and do not spend their time discussing makeup and boys (no pressure there, they are just far more interested in making dens) and because they spend their days with boys, are not all that impressed by them. Most of the parents are like-minded as far as sex goes. A few years ago however, a parent caused a furore by explaining everything in gruesome detail, using dolls to explain positions etc, to her 8 yr old son. Said 8 yr old found it extremely funny and proceeded to relay it to the rest of the school. Cue several weeks of sexualised behaviour. Then it all died down and they went back to trading conkers and building dens. Of course the knowledge exists in the school. It's just that in the absence of any positive reinforcement for it, they are really not all that interested at such a young age.

What I meant by the violence/sex thing is that people seem to view violence as more acceptable fare than sex (which I think is completely skewed). Mostly the film classification board does a good job (although witness Secret Window, with Jonny Depp, which contains quite horrendous violence- people being brained with shovels, killed with screwdrivers- but is classified a 12) but a great many people do not respect the recommendations. Even more so when it comes to video games (most 11yr olds in the country own or have played GTA, which I find appalling).

This means that children are being exposed to topics at ages when they cannot handle them intellectually or emotionally, be it violence or sexual themes. And the exposure to violence being deemed more acceptable than exposure to sex, this means that as we lower and sexualise childhood, there are people out there exposing their children to violence at increasingly and even younger ages. (witness my tosser ex BIL, who thought the Jurassic Park trilogy a perfect present for his 4 yr old's birthday).

If you asked around your 8 yr old's friends, it's my betting you would find quite a few who had seen 15 certificates, and some who had seen 18s- usually horror films. I find this unacceptable and bordering on child abuse as it gives the children in question a totally skewed idea of what adulthood and the world are. Remember that children do not get their information from as many sources as adults- every piece of knowledge may well be a new one, and every nugget counts. If a child is seeing 18 certificate films on a fairly regular basis, before he or she has laid down solid moral and philosophical foundations, I challenge anyone to say it does not negatively affect them.

Sex education can never in my view be divorced from the emotional and relationship issues linked to it, which in fact are far more important, but are given way less coverage than the mechanics in the classroom.