to not want ds, 9, to attend the sex education lessons at school?

[fircone]

It's just that he is only a little boy. He is the youngest in the year and is completely un-streetwise. His friends' mothers are unhappy about these lessons too.

I'm not Victoria Gillick (remember her, anyone?) and I would be happy for information to be provided at the end of Year 6 before they move up to secondary school, but I strongly feel that at nine years old this is going to be all too much.

I know that there is the brigade who insist that children must be aware of everything from the earliest age, but I am happy for children to stay children for as long as possible.

It's a long way off for me yet but actually I would be a parent who wants to know exactly what sex ed my DS will be getting (he is 3 now and I will answer his questions when he asks them). Because I would be worried that the school might be teaching the children bullshit like Silver Ring propaganda and 'abstinence is the only contraception you need'.

Well, that IS reasonable, to find out what they will be telling your kid. I mean, it's good to know what might come up and what kind of level it's at.

But I am personally very pro-sex education in schools (though it's even better coming from Mum and Dad if poss, I reckon.) The stuff about kids in Scandinavian (and also other) countries who get sex ed as a matter of course early on, having much lower rates of teenage pregnancy than us, is very interesting; we have had the highest rates in Europe by a country mile for quite some time. Why do we think this is? It really worries me and depresses me! I am particularly interested in what people who think sex ed should be left as late as possible think about this. Not because I want to snarl at you, but because I am genuinely interested in other perspectives than my own!

A lot of it is tied up with self esteem, and the better sex ed programmes are really relationship orientated, which I think ties up with cory's post. My children are already saying they don't want to have their families until they are quite old (well old in their heads, as they are only 7 and 9), and we have talked about all the fun and exciting things they might want to do with their lives. In some areas and some families there are no expectations of this nature. Life isn't a very exciting prospect, and actually having a family very young is fairly normal and not considered to be a bad thing.

As parents I think it is up to us to ensure that our children feel that life offers many opportunities to them, and give them the tools to make that so whenever possible. Obviously for some children life is limited, we have several severely disabled children in the family and their opportunities are unfortunately more limited. I would hope that school would also give the same message, and support our children in making good relationships, not being persuaded to do things they don't want, take responsibility for their actions etc. For me making sex into some sort of taboo isn't helpful at all but should be a natural part of this much more holistic approach, which should start as soon as children start to be independent thinkers.

why do you think schools would teach that sort of stuff, madamez?

I am not saying that they do at present, but I remember some discussion about the possibilities of introducing abstinence-based sex ed, and there was certainly a big publicity push from the SIlver Ringpiece people a few years back. And given that there are a few academies over here now that are allowed to teach creationism... Well when DS gets to that age, I will be wanting to know what they are going to teach him.

Because if they are going to teach US-style abstinence education I would be concerned.

I do not think abstinence and silver ring stuff is likely to come up in state school sex ed, but the principle of informing oneself beforehand is a good one.

Not that I did myself, because I am not that bothered about it. I've been delivering my own sex ed to my dc ever since they could say gooseberry bush, so anything they hear at school they can compare with what is said at home. They ask me questions occasionally which show they are prepared to discuss it with me and that's the main thing.

Nooka, I'm jealous that your children want to wait to have their own kids. My DD heard that you can have a baby at 16 and is planning on that! She is 6. Hope she changes her mind.

dd is very career orientated at the moment! She has plans for her year out (she wants to be a marine biologist) and then plans to run a farm, with horses and a little shop where she will show off her pictures. This will be run with her best friend. She will be having a girl and a boy - she does know she can't plan this, but hey

I think it's worth talking to your children about all the fun exciting possibilities out there. Partly because it's fun hearing them plan their future worlds, but also because it broadens their horizons.

Schools should all have a parents meeting where they see teh programmes, ask questions, etc. I certanly agree parents should know what will be covered

Madamez - this what I'm worried about with my DSs video (won't see it until next week) the fact that it's been 'cleared' by the Religious Education people makes me wonder what slant or bias it's going to have, and if I disagree with it what do I do? If I withdraw him, it looks like I don't want him to learn about the actual topic. If I let him watch it, am I colluding in perpetuating attitudes I don't agree with? I suppose all I can do is watch it, and talk to DS about the bits I disagree with (if there are any!) before he sees it (or after?) Oh bollocks - it would be easier if I just let him pick it up in the playground like I did

serenity is it the video made by Channel 4?

I totally agree with you fircone. I realise that this is flying in the face of the brigade who believe that we have the highest teen pregnancy rate in Europe because sex ed is not sufficient. Actually I have experienced life abroad and I believe that we have the highest rate because the UK does not look after its teenagers as much as other countries, leaves them unsupervised in situations where they ought not to be, and has far too much of an alcohol culture; also because many teens do not feel loved except when they have a boy/girl friend and/ or a baby.

I realise this is an unpopular view because it places the "blame" for teen pregnancy back in the parents court, but that's what I believe. I do not think any amount of school-based sex ed at appallingly young ages is going to tackle the problem, and may in fact traumatise children who are not ready for it. It ought to be optional for the children- they should be able to decide when they feel ready to know, not the govt, not teachers and not parents to a certain extent.

I don't know about you lot in Englnd, but really, sex ed videos are perfectly fine and sensible and matter of fact, specifically made for children. There'e no point panicking in advance. You'll be disappointed

DS is 8, 9 in september, he is surrounded by books and images of childbirth, pregnancy and breastfeeding, due to my work and my interests. he had the where do babies come from talk when i was pregnant with DD, when he was 5. you know, the special cuddle one?

he knows sex is more than kissing, and something you only do with someone who you like and care for very very much and it is really for when you are much older.

he is not too young to know some of the information, partic the essentials, not all th eemotional ramifications.

i think that for me it is easier to discuss as this sort of thing is part of my day to day life which has normalised it for me, and therefore normalises it, rather than makes it scary and frightening and something ot be hidden from the chidlren.

DS knowing where babies come from and that women have vaginas and men have a penis does not make him any less of a child

it makes him aware and less likely to listen to and thikn the bolleaux about sex he will hear in the playground is true

and he knows he can ask me anything and i will tell him without getting in a dither or blushing.

No idea Cece, I always assumed that there was just one standard film that everyone used, national curriculum type thing.

No way! Your child, your rules.

All the schools I have worked in use the series made by Channel 4.

I expect there are other videos though that other schools use. Just that is the only one I have used.

"I know what homosexuals are but I certainly don't know WHY they are - can you explain"

...... homosexuals are homosexuals because they're born that way. People have no choice as to their sexuality and therefore shouldn't be persecuted for it.

I feel it's very important that my dd understands this. We live in a community where a good few people feel free to express violently anti-homosexual views. The boys in her class already fling homophobic abuse at each other, and I'd be gutted if my daughter grew up a bigot.

Of course the other sex education that my children have had comes from watching nature programmes and spending time in the country. Plenty of both homo and hetero sexual activity going on there (actually quite a bit in the park too) . I guess this is why I find it so surprising that children could reach the age of 8 or 9 without asking any questions. I guess I feel that part of my parenting role in explaining and helping them to understand the wider world, as much as to help them be comfortable about discovering their own sexual nature. I think it is useful for them to do part of this growing in school because discussing these things with their peers and other adults is important too.

duchesse on Fri 04-Jul-08 13:11:39
"I totally agree with you fircone. I realise that this is flying in the face of the brigade who believe that we have the highest teen pregnancy rate in Europe because sex ed is not sufficient. Actually I have experienced life abroad and I believe that we have the highest rate because the UK does not look after its teenagers as much as other countries, leaves them unsupervised in situations where they ought not to be, and has far too much of an alcohol culture; also because many teens do not feel loved except when they have a boy/girl friend and/ or a baby. "

Have you actually ever lived in Scandinavia (where they have some of the lowest teenage pregnancy rates)? Because I have and I don't recognise it from your description. Noone could say that they do not have an alcohol culture! It's the Eastern aquavit zone fgs! Or that teenagers are supervised all the time. They let their children out very young in Scandinavia and most teenagers go out routinely at weekends without adult supervision. And even 9-10-year-olds are allowed to roam the countryside on their own in the daytime- of course they could get pregnant at 13 if that's what they wanted to do. The point is that they don't- and that they know how to avoid it.

"I do not think any amount of school-based sex ed at appallingly young ages is going to tackle the problem, and may in fact traumatise children who are not ready for it. It ought to be optional for the children- they should be able to decide when they feel ready to know, not the govt, not teachers and not parents to a certain extent."

But how is a 10-year-old able to decide that she needs to learn about periods if noone has told her about them? And wouldn't she be more traumatised if they started before she knew what they were. And why would anyone be traumatised by a gentle talk about sperms and eggs and babies growing in the womb? Honestly, it's not like they go into technicalities about oral sex or things in Infants. They really don't.

We had not only sex education from an early age when I grew up in Sweden, but a subject called Child development (taught in Year 8 or thereabouts). That is something I would like to see introduced here.

That's really interesting, Cory.

I'm with the 'give them information' brigade.

Ds just asked me if I have a vagina.

We had a nice chat about the subject, but I was not tempted to show him.

He doesn't seem at all traumatised, but I am glad the school warned me this was coming up.

I remain firmly with the "give them information as and when they are ready for it" brigade. And there are plenty of 10 yr olds who are not ready to be told formally, my own included. Luckily at the school she goes to, she was able to make up her own mind about it (I left that entirely to her) and and a complete meltdown when a misunderstanding made her science teacher insist on her coming to the class with the 12-13 yr olds to be told about periods etc. She was in hysterics for about half an hour after being rescued from the foetal position in which she was under a desk. This is not a child who is in any way ready to hear this stuff, let alone the mechanics of sex. If she had been in a state school, this would as I understand have been compulsory.

Now, she knows a fair bit already, from questions she's asked over the years, observations of our animals and television. Periods do not suddenly appear without warning in a child with a child's body. They are preceded by other signs which the child will not fail to spot in themselves, and make them more interested in these things. It is highly unlikely that a 10 yr old with a developing chest is not interested in what is going on in her body. This is not a good reason to wade straight and explain everything at once. In fact it's inappropriate and unnecessary to deliver it all at once imo.

Cory- my observations based on France, not Scandinavia.

ha ha ha @ sal's dc saying 'so how do you ask for it back then'

i am also intrigued as to what your dh replied.

my dd was 5 when she asked me. I had already mentioned about 3 months previously to this that the man has a sperm and the lady has an egg, and they have a special cuddle etc....

On the occasion when she was five she asked me, (as I was diopng the dishes) how did the sperm (she remembered the name!!) get to the egg?

me --it swims.

dd --No mummy how does it get into the lady

At that moment i was debating this very important moment, and how should i dealwhit it.

me-- he puts hi swiily inside the lady, and they make a baby and if they have a baby they are very happy.

dd--( matter of factly) and the willy is very happy too mummy.

walks off.

me --lmfao