Neighbour asking me to take her to hospital appointments

[BecauseNothing]

A neighbour has asked me to drive her to, stay with her and bring her home from 2 upcoming hospital appointments. The first is in 4 weeks time and the second the week after. I have said I can’t because I’m working and she has asked if I can book the time off. I haven’t replied but this seems cheeky to me after I’d said no. AIBU? I need my annual leave for things with my own family. She has people who visit her who I presume are family and friends but apparently has no one to go with her. I work full time at home and have children so with everything that comes with that I’m busy.

That's very generous of you. I assume that you are in a position to buy additional annual leave if you use up all your leave due to driving elderly neighbours to their appointments. Many people aren't in a financial situation that would enable them to do that.

How often do you imagine this situation arises? 😂 I said I'd be willing to use annual leave to help an elderly neighbour who needed me, not that I'd exhaust my entire allowance running a shuttle service for every pensioner in the area.

The determination to turn one occasional act of neighbourliness into an unsustainable lifelong commitment is getting rather silly.

How many elderly neighbours do you imagine are beating down my or OP's door for lifts? 😂 We're talking about an occasional act of neighbourliness, not me exhausting my annual leave running an unofficial patient transport service.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DO NOR FEEL THE SAME.

I simply cannot engage further. It's exhausting xx

But OPs annual leave is exhausted already. She's buying extra, even before taking days for the multiple appointments the neighbour has asked her to cover and optimistically assuming this will be the last ever request. If that's not you, and you wouldn't be in a position where more annual leave would be needed at a cost, you're not in the same position as OP.

You also answered yes to a question about whether you'd be willing to help any/all nearby elderly with a 'yes' but it seems that's actually not the case? For which I don't blame you, I wouldn't either, but nor would I have said I would when asked.

Oh I do beg your pardon on the annual leave point, that is entirely my bad I'd missed that OP had already exhausted hers and was buying additional leave, so you're quite right that our circumstances aren't identical at all on that front. Apologies OP and anyone else for that.

On the “any/all” point, though, I think you're interpreting a rhetorical exchange rather more literally than I intended it. Yes, I would help any elderly neighbour who genuinely needed my help. I obviously didn't mean every elderly person, every appointment, regardless of circumstances or need, indefinitely

And my original point remains: OP is absolutely entitled to say no. I simply don't think an almost-80-year-old neighbour is a “cheeky fucker” merely for asking.

OP is not in a position to help, should she feel bad, absolutely not. Would I assume neighbour cheeky and trying to get one over on her, absolutely not. Would I call an 80 year old a cheeky fucker, absolutely not for that, and probably not at all unless something extreme, which I really can't imagine.

Now the whole CF thing may well be light hearted and flippant, but I do find it in terribly poor taste in regards to an older person reaching out for support, a person whose circumstances none of us are really aware of.

Would my default position be to try and help, absolutely. If I genuinely couldn't help, my reaction would be regret that I wasn't able to, not indignation that they'd had the temerity to ask me. And I'd do what I reasonably could to help them find another solution.

That doesn't make me holier than thou, but this thread does sadden me and make me wonder about community and aging.

Ah, wondered if you might have missed it.

On the any/all, it did not read rhetorically which I suspect might be where the disbelief comes from. And worth pointing out that it's not necessarily straightforward one offs (or two offs) in the way you're defining this. With an 80 year old who for whatever reason thinks it's ok to ask the nearest middle aged woman before her own family, it's optimistic to presume this is going to be the only time. There are probably more medical appointments in her future. She's also probably not the neediest person in the vicinity, given her not especially advanced age, relatives and ability to take trips and navigate the internet, which I expect is why the pp were asked about multiple elderly.

For the CF comments, I think some of them are a bit premature in that one possibility with someone that age acting unreasonably is always dementia (and yes I know it's also an MN trope to even suggest it!). But if the neighbour is compos mentis, and thought it was ok to mither a woman whom she will know has children in the home plus a job to use multiple blocs of annual leave as an alternative to asking her own relatives, after being told no, cheeky fuckery is exactly what it is.

Personally, as a woman in middle age, I'm extremely saddened by any expectation that the nearest woman can be approached for caring duties and we aren't able to talk honestly about the impact that has on us. Remember that as the neighbour has children in the plural, there's a greater than 50% chance she's got at least one son.

I love the elderly, and feel a strong sense of community and collective responsibility.

In a thread full of hilarious virtue signalling in this thread, this post takes the cake!

"I love the elderly" - what a stupid, smug thing to say. Do "the elderly" love you back? This 68 year old (am I "elderly" ?) thinks you're an patronising prig.

@BecauseNothing is working full time, flat out with her own family, but you sit back and judge her as inferior to you. She helps her neighbour when & how she can. Her neighbour has children, but doesn't want to bother them. And you are castigating the OP for not taking annual leave to offer a free chauffeur service?

I think @BecauseNothing has been marvellously patient and thoughtful in her posts. If you addressed your post to me @Alee36 I'd be swearing and laughing at you so much, my computer would melt.

I do hear you on the disproportionate caring responsibilities placed on women, and I agree that's a very real issue. I suppose where we differ is that I don't see an individual asking another individual for help as necessarily representing an expectation of care. An ask isn't an obligation. OP is perfectly entitled to say no.

Equally, while there may well be more appointments in this woman's future, presumably there have also been appointments in her past for which she hasn't asked OP. That actually makes me more inclined to wonder whether she's in a particular bind on this occasion, rather than assume she's decided OP is now her designated chauffeur.

My perspective is probably coloured by having worked for years in sheltered housing. It might genuinely shock people how many older people have adult children who provide little or no practical support. There can be all sorts of perfectly legitimate reasons for that -geography, estrangement, work, caring responsibilities, difficult family relationships, or indeed the older person simply not wanting to ask them, but “she has children” doesn't tell me that she has children who are available and willing to help. I've seen enough to know those are very different things.

And I probably would describe 80 as advanced age in this context, with the enormous caveat, before I accidentally restart the Great Homogeneity War 😂, that obviously two 80-year-olds can have completely different levels of health, mobility, independence and support etc.

I think that's ultimately why my instinct is different. Where the facts are missing, my default is to wonder whether somebody asking for help might actually need it, and are in a bind, rather than assume they're trying to take advantage. That doesn't mean anyone has to say yes.

Goodness me! You've invented a position I haven't taken, decided it means I think I'm superior to OP, and then worked yourself into enough of a fury about your own invention to call a complete stranger stupid, smug and a prig.
But yes, do tell me more about my character.

The irony of delivering this spectacularly hostile little character assessment while objecting to my supposed lack of respect for other people is something else.

If you consider yourself elderly at 68, please rest assured that you've successfully disproved any suggestion that my affection extends indiscriminately to the entire demographic. 😂

Hmm, I don't think you can presume there were other comparable appointments that she would usually need and have help for. This is at a hospital requiring both a drive and a wait, so it's not necessarily a standard appointment and could well be her first like this. Reasonable perhaps to wonder, but it doesn't reach the level of being able to presume.

80 is not particularly advanced years in the context of a discussion about supporting the elderly. There are millions of people older and more infirm than that in the UK. I also made a mistake and OP guessed probably late 70s nearly 80, which reinforces the point. Neighbour is unlikely to be the person with the greatest need in the community.

And regardless of whether a person has any support from elsewhere, what we know here is that the neighbour not only hadn't asked her family (thus didn't know) but also thought it was ok to keep pushing when told no. To suggest a woman whom she must know has many other commitments use some of her annual leave. Whatever level of bind she might be in, assuming no dementia that's taking the piss.

I do wonder, if you think that wasn't raising an expectation, what you reckon she thought would happen when she made her a/l suggestion? Because either it means a busy woman who has already refused you prioritising you not asking your kids over her own family and commitments, or putting her in a position where she's forced to refuse you and then has to deal with whatever feelings of upset may ensue. There's a case for asking once not being an expectation, but not the second time.

summertree1 didn't say it was unkind not to take her

I think this is probably where we genuinely differ. I don't think asking someone for something, even asking again, automatically creates an expectation that they will say yes.
Adults can ask, and adults can say no. I don't think the mere fact of being asked transfers responsibility for the asker's problem onto the person being asked.

I absolutely accept that persistent asking after a clear no can become pressure, depending on how it's done. But I don't read the OP as saying the neighbour became angry, manipulative or tried to make her feel guilty? She asked whether annual leave was an option. OP can simply say it isn't. I don't think she's then responsible for managing the neighbour's possible disappointment either.

And yes, I can't know that there have been previous appointments, equally, we can't know this is her first in a series of more. That's really my wider point. Where information is missing, my instinct isn't to fill the gaps with the least charitable explanation available. If a woman approaching 80 suddenly asks a neighbour for substantial help that she apparently hasn't routinely asked for before, my first thought is that there may be more going on than we know.

I also think we'll have to disagree slightly on age. Obviously people vary enormously, and plenty of people are extremely independent at 80, but late 70s/80 is absolutely an age at which health problems, bereavement, mobility difficulties and shrinking support networks become statistically more prevalent. Acknowledging that isn't saying every 80-year-old is frail or incapable.

And I completely take your point about women disproportionately absorbing caring responsibilities. I just don't think the answer to that very real structural problem is that an older woman asking another woman for help is in itself imposing a caring responsibility on her. An ask isn't an obligation.

Ultimately I think we're reading the same unknowns differently. You see enough here to infer entitlement; I see enough uncertainty that I'd give her the benefit of the doubt. We don't have to agree. I'm not trying to change your mind!

To be clear, I've no issue with you giving the neighbour the benefit of the doubt in these circumstances. That's your call. It's everything else, and there's a number of words here I've not said- automatic, manipulative, transfer of responsibility. Because it's one thing for you to think something, another to accuse a woman in this position of poor taste for talking about how it made her feel. If you just think you'd have gone if a neighbour asked you and you had enough annual leave to make your position different to OPs, that'd be fine.

The initial request is arguably ok. The second one is what places the neighbour in CF territory. She has family who she hadn't asked, so the existence of others who don't have family doesn't affect us here. Despite that, she thought it was preferable to ask a woman who she knows to have children and work commitments should use some of her precious annual leave. That placed OP in a position where she had to either refuse or deprioritise her own wishes and existing responsibilities, because these things were all less important than the neighbours childrens work, regardless of how she felt about being forced to pick between these unpalatable options. All this is what makes her a cheeky fucker, however desperate she might be feeling.

On the age point, the mention of late 70s/80 not being that old in comparison to the elderly as a cohort, this doesn't preclude an average 78 year old having more health issues than an average younger person. That's a different point. So you're not saying anything I disagree with. It's not wrong, it just doesn't address what we're talking about. Again, in the context of the elderly and infirm, the information given about the neighbour means she's not at an especially advanced age, being several years below the average lifespan and clearly able to use the internet and go on trips. We know this.

I said I'd be willing to use annual leave to help an elderly neighbour who needed me,

Very telling use of the verb 'would'.

You haven't actually sacrificed annual leave for a neighbour.

It's easy doing it hypothetically, very hard to do in real life.

When I read Alee36 I keep seeing Kevin from Motherland with Julia's parents in law.....

Very similar to people who can’t actually drive or own a car saying that if they DID, they would happily drive out of their way in all weathers and collect/drop off all work colleagues every day!

“Very telling use of the verb ‘would’” 😂 Steady on, Poirot.

What would you prefer, an itemised CV of Good Deeds with dates and references? I’ve already been accused of virtue signalling simply for saying I’d help; I suspect actually listing occasions when I have helped would go down spectacularly well.

You don’t have to believe me. Fortunately, my willingness to help other people doesn’t require verification by a Mumsnet jury.

That's an impressively tortured analogy 😂 If you have to turn “I'd use a day's leave to help a neighbour who needed me” into “I'd chauffeur every colleague every day in all weathers” before it sounds ridiculous, perhaps the original statement wasn't actually that ridiculous.

Haha!!!
I forgot about Kevins love for the elderly 😂
Can you imagine being subjected to the word salad though-hearing aids off !

No itemised list required, just pointing out that if you had previously taken annual leave to help a neighbour, you would have said ‘I’ve done it’. ‘I’d be willing to’ says you haven’t done it.

Ive got a neighbour whose initial 'could you help with...' has turned into daily knocks at the door, latest is 'can you find quotes for my car insurance?' He is driving me nuts. Similar age to OPs neighbour, he has family but they don't visit and he falls out with everyone. The last time he said that he wasn't talking to so-and-so, I asked what I had to do to get him to refuse to talk to me! 😂
You know what they say 'no good turn goes unpunished '

No, it doesn't. 😂 “I'd be willing to” describes what I would do in the hypothetical situation we're discussing. It tells you precisely nothing about whether I've ever done anything comparable before.
I could say “I'd be willing to take annual leave to care for a sick relative” having done exactly that previously. I wouldn't suddenly be grammatically obliged to announce “I'VE DONE IT.”

This is so silly.

Try a Taxi then. It's not rocket science.

Sounds like she's decided you'll be the one in her circle least inconvenienced. I'd be nipping that in the bud immediately.

You’re all heart!

Can see all points of view here. Is it presumed then you doing all appointments..but if you say No you should not be pushed further on it. Can see why people dont get involved)