To be disappointed Dolly Parton supported biological men using women's toilets?

[Jane3212]

I really liked her music and she seemed like a nice person: her Imagination Library came to my borough recently. I was very sad to hear she'd died.
But was very disappointed to read this. The statements she made about trans people deserving respect, no issue with those.
But minimising the reasonable concerns women have about being forced to let men in their toilets was wrong.
I'm not saying she should have spoken out for GC issues. It might have been best just not to comment.
Parton had connections with drag queens and I wonder if that's the lens she saw transwomen through : not an excuse but might partially explain.

I agree re her circle, she also supported her adult driver to become a trans man, so probably thought of surgery and hormones as something a few adults did, not vulnerable children.

'it's a minor blip in terms of her life and I don't think it will really be part of how she's remembered.'- definitely, she should be remembered for her music, as well as her charity work and humour.

Thank you, that's very valuable info.

The other article is from 2023, but I agree about the 2015 one in that we didn't have a lot of the info we have now.

I understand your point about the relative population sizes.I'm not disputing that. What I'm disputing is the leap from that to “trans women are several times more likely than other men to have been incarcerated for sexual offences.” That's a specific comparative claim about rates, and you need the relevant denominators and a like-for-like comparison to establish it. And saying this proves that trans women “do not exhibit the same offending patterns as women” is a different claim again. I haven't said they have the same offending patterns as women, so you're arguing against something I didn't claim?

If you have US, Canadian and Scandinavian data showing the same pattern, please post the actual studies but if also be expecting more for a global pattern? But please don't just give me prison-sample data and extrapolate it to trans women as a whole population, because a correctional sample isn't automatically representative of the wider population. And please don't post the same old Swedish study unless you're addressing that doesn't establish the claim you're making, and its lead author has specifically objected to it being used to make conclusions it cannot support.

Thank you for this, a lot of things I hadn't considered and are really important to know.

Are you happy your thread descended into "toilet safety"?

God, I've also heard her criticized for not doing enough to support trans rights, she can't win. And her having a different opinion than yours doesn't mean she's wrong.

Drags queens are irrelevant to this issue.

Very bizarre behaviour to admittedly join a thread you haven't read only to try to derail it into a separate trans topic and strawman an argument for you to argue against. Why would you join a thread you haven't read to argue against someone's posts you haven't read in full and insert an assumption of what you think they think 🤔

Thank you.

oh heaven forbid women might care about toilet safety for
girls and woman,
(you know, the biological kind.)
Heaven forbid that women would like to feel safe.
Heaven forbid that women might be allowed
to say no to men.

I always feel like such a coward when I read these threads, because I shy away from posting because of the nature of the responses, so thank you to all the posters who have shown that acceptance of transpeople is valid and calmly countered some of the misinformation.

Dolly's acceptance and respect and support for transpeople was not a 'blip', it was considered and wholly in line with her core values. She will be remembered for her music; like the Oscar-nominated 'Travellin' Thru' which she wrote for the film TransAmerica.

"Some people are blind or ignorant, and you can't be that prejudiced and hateful and go through this world and still be happy. One thing about this movie is that I think art can change minds. It's all right to be who you are."

accepting trans people is different to saying you believe that trans people have changed sex and therefore have the right to use whatever facilities and services they so choose. It’s not rocket science. Perfectly possible to accept trans people but not accept that they’ve changed sex and have the same rights as the sex they’re presenting as. That’s not transphobia, it’s common sense and enshrined in law after the supreme court ruling.

Its odd and a clearly deliberate tactic, I'm curious how the poster hadn't read the thread yet knew enough who they disagreed with to start making strawman accusations 🤔

'Descended into'? That poster provided important information.

I don't want a wider derail into a general debate, but that particular post gave excellent info on stuff that often gets overlooked in the debate.

Don't you think it's valuable to be aware of these ' safety points?

Why the quotes? I research and report on toilet incidents.

"A measure of a civilised society is now the majority treats the minorities".

In my opinion, the majority are trans inclusive. There is a reason why the trans exclusive need to have their own forum.

'acceptance of transpeople is valid '

• I think trans people should not be discriminated against or mistreated. But does that mean they should be allowed into female spaces?

You think most people in the UK are 'inclusive' in the sense of supporting transwomen in women's loos, changing rooms, Girl Guides, prisons, sports and all the rest?

I wonder why the government pulled back from puberty blockers for minors, if the majority agreed with that. And I wonder why Burnham changed his stance.

Targeted harassment.

Aye, I can see that by your user name.

I'm glad you did! The toilet-obsessed brigade on here come out fiercely to anyone who disagrees with them. I have been there!

I'm with Dolly: 'if you need to pee then you need to pee.' I don't care if you need to come into the Ladies to do that for some reason.

I think this thread is in very bad taste. Dolly Parton is not even cold in the ground and people are picking on ONE THING she said, and most likely something that she would rather not have been asked about. She gave a diplomatic reply.

I'm always confused about their argument, anyway. How would I know if I had been in the Ladies loo with a trans person, anyway?! Any one of us could have been, at any time.

No because it's nothing to do with YOUR thread.

thank god the supreme court disagrees with you.
You don’t get to give away my rights to privacy and dignity. The entitlement of it.

Dignity is not something I associate with a public toilet.

Why would Dolly Partons opinion have to be in keeping with a UK court ruling? Likewise Margaret Attwood? A decision in another jurisdiction doesn't control when people get to think.

Some people's posts start to look pretty clearly transphobic of they post misinformation about trans people, strawmans what others are actually saying or use tactics like sealioning and derailing to shutdown proper risk based discussion. Instead, reducing the conversation to an unnuanced position where people who are gender-critical are automatically right, while anyone who disagrees is either someone who “hates women” or a woman supposedly too stupid to “apply her own logic” (I'm still cringing some randomer has the nerve to say this about a successful female author rather than actually engage with the substance of her point

Calling women “dim handmaidens” simply because they hold a different, informed opinion isn't some principled defence of women’s rights. Attacking women who disagree while simultaneously shutting down substantive discussion, it’s understandable that people might conclude that for some posters their motivation is less about supporting women’s rights and more about hostility towards trans people. And when you get so annoyed at someone even believing something different to you because it's supportive of trans people, then yeah that's transphobic.