To think in life being a nice, good person rarely counts for much?

[Autumncalm]

I’ve noticed in life that being nice, helpful, honest, reliable, trustworthy rarely count for much.

For example when I was at school (and I still see the same thing happening now at my children’s school), horrible bully type kids can be the most popular and rarely get any kind of consequences for being nasty. It seems as though no one wants to get on the wrong side of the bullies.

My children play in football teams and one of the coaches always goes on about turning up to training, being a good team player, listening, trying your best. But the truth is they only want the best players. There are players that rarely turn up to training, are nasty to other kids, but because they are naturally talented players they still get to play a full game every week, get man of the match and so on

I see it happen at work. One of my colleagues got really badly bullied by another colleague she even had email proof and it went to HR but nothing happened to the bully colleague because she is admittedly good at her job and has experiences that others don’t.

It’s not always like that, one of my children never got picked for anything at primary school even though he tried his best, behaved etc but once he got to secondary his good nature paid off and they started actually rewarding effort and good behaviour but I do believe that often in life that the values we are told to have don’t really get you anywhere.

I often think this too op. I’m sure people will come along and say no, but it’s been my experience too.

In a couple of your examples you mention the bully being talented at what they do so the company/football coach still want them around. I think it’s pretty obvious how and why this would happen. They wouldn’t get away with being so nasty away from that remit, it’s because they’re particularly exceptional and no one wants to lose their skills.

I've only ever been abused for my kind nature so now found it's easier to be a bitter bitch with strong boundaries. Even friends I've had for years took advantage. People can be so shitty, unfortunately.

It's absolutely the case.

You have to be a strong, resilient person as well as a good person if you want to prosper in life - I mean in terms of personal happiness and fulfillment.

Just being nice and self-sacrificing, or self-effacing, will not bring happiness. I think I'm a good person (I treat other people well, I'm a good, loyal friend and I try to help people when I can) but I'm not a pushover and will stick up for myself. I will also judge other people (to myself - I don't mean I badmouth them!) and to me, this is just having boundaries.

So make sure you stick up for yourself, don't let nasty people take advantage, put yourself first when it's important to do so and teach your children these things.

Being strong and having a strong self-image and self-respect leads to a happier life than just being nice.

All the successful people I know are not particularly kind and they are expert manipulators.
I think harm can be done by encouraging your children to always put others first. Don’t assume everyone is teaching this lesson!!!

What in insightful reply.

This is a tricky one because so much depends on context. Being a good and nice person with some people will mean that they really appreciate the friendship and will be good and nice back. Being good and nice with others will simply mean that they use you to their own advantage with no reciprocity in the relationship. So I think it's important to try to suss out early on what kind of a person you are interacting with.

What goes around comes around.

If you are known for being unpleasant, people don't do you favours, include you in things, spend time with you.

When you're known to be a decent, friendly and hardworking, people respect you, are more willing to help you out and make friends.

Being a decent human being and being a pushover aren't the same thing.

Nice people attract bullies because they seem like easy prey. Bullies don't respect boundaries and they don't respect others who respect others. They are inherently insecure and need validation for their inadequacies.

You're not imagining it at all. I studied this in university and the phenomena, as I recall, has a specific name but stated that integrity at work threatens a bully who has none.

So, they play dirty and often win because they are master manipulators.

In life, I have learned to not let them go unchallenged nor to bow to their tactics. So, I may not be as nice as I used to be but I refuse to let anyone bully me!

I totally agree that you can be a nice decent person without being a pushover.

I’ve had to learn the hard way. But I also think that if you are very good at something or have power either by having lots of money, status pr a skills that others want. You can get away with being an asrehole.

Perhaps the middle ground would be not to be a bitter bitch, but to insist on firm boundaries. It is possible to be firm but still a decent person.

I actually disagree with your conclusion even though I understand why you've arrived at it. I think there’s a difference between saying that being nice, honest, reliable and trustworthy isn’t always immediately rewarded and saying those qualities "don’t count for much".

Life absolutely isn’t always fair. A child might be nasty but still get picked for football because they’re naturally talented, or someone at work might behave terribly but be kept because they’re very good at their job. But in those situations, they’re being rewarded for their ability not their character.

And I don’t think it’s true that there are no consequences for being a nasty or unkind person. Actions have consequences, although they aren’t always immediate or obvious. I’ve seen first-hand that people who consistently treat others badly can eventually find themselves divorced, friendless, with damaged family relationships or people simply no longer wanting them in their lives. You might get away with being horrible for a while, but that doesn’t mean there’s no cost in the long term to your relationships.

I also think we teach children a slightly misleading version of “if you’re good, you’ll be rewarded.” Being kind doesn’t guarantee popularity, behaving well doesn’t guarantee you’ll be chosen, and working hard doesn’t guarantee success.

But being a good person shouldn’t be a transaction. You don’t behave well because you’re guaranteed a trophy, promotion or reward. You do it because that’s the sort of person you want to be, while also teaching children to stand up for themselves and not let people take advantage of them.

Your final example actually shows that sometimes those qualities are recognised, just not necessarily straight away.

Being decent might not get you picked for the football team, but it can determine the sort of friendships, relationships and life you build. I’d much rather my children grow up kind and trustworthy and able to stand up for themselves than successful at the expense of everyone around them.

I think some people are 'nice' but they are dull and a bit of a doormat. I am kind, helpful and lovely to my friends and family, Im polite to randoms but I wouldn't go out of my way to do kind/helpful things for everyone as then you just get burnt out. Your values should be about how you feel as a person, not to get things. I am happy that I am a very good friend, daughter, auntie etc. I am happy with my morals and choices. I treat people with respect until they give me a reason not to, but I don't take any shit. Worry about what the people you care about think and dont stress about everyone else!

In your examples unfortunately talented people will do better in life than talentless ones, that's just a fact of life. We have an absolutely awful client at work, she's a complete bitch who enjoys making being feel bad and gaslights, lies etc. I hate working with her, but we have to as she spends a lot with us. But I would hate more to be her, all her colleagues hate her, she has a poor relationship with her family and is just stressed all the time. Sometimes the punishment for mean people is being unhappy in their own head!

You can be a nice as you like but in the end ability and talent wins out

You can be a decent person and still have boundaries but there’s a fine line and some people will take advantage of kindness.

But like in the case of children’s sport. I’ve known of children be absolute horrors and still get picked for teams because they admittedly were good at the sport.

I’ve also seen examples when adults have chosen teams on a mix of talent and good behaviour.

But what message does it send when little Freddie thumps other kids and calls them names doesn’t show up for training then still gets picked for the team.

Work wise, I’ve found that being friendly, helpful and genuinely interested in all my colleagues no matter their seniority has helped me massively. People are much more willing to go out if they’re way for me and they still have respect for me because I work really hard. That might just be my industry but I’ve seen people who are total arseholes get frozen out of senior roles because it’s so important to have people skills at those levels.

Out if work, I surround myself with good people and give nasty ones a wide berth - job done.

That the team want the decent players?

I think the fact we have President Trump sadly shows you are right op.

This makes no sense though.

No football team would win if we picked players solely on the basis of how many random acts of kindness they had performed over the previous year.

If you are hugely and genetically talented at football then yes, of course you are going to get ahead in football but thats not because you are a jerk, it's because you are gifted at football!

Also, you are assuming that being gifted at something like football automatically means that the rest of your life is going to be super easy. Its clearly not, going by the amount of substance addictions, broken marriages and doomed relationships you find when you dig into famous rich footballers private lives

I’ve noticed in life that being nice, helpful, honest, reliable, trustworthy rarely count for much.

These traits are only part of the picture though.

People have and require personality traits from across a spectrum to deal with what life will throw at them.

You cannot be nice to someone threatening you for example.

I think life throws very mixed realities for people to face into and some people get easier ones than others and that is a significant part of whether you will have a good/easy life.

Personalities are as much as anything, along with temperament, how we develop how we will react to what we are faced with.