To think in life being a nice, good person rarely counts for much?

[Autumncalm]

I’ve noticed in life that being nice, helpful, honest, reliable, trustworthy rarely count for much.

For example when I was at school (and I still see the same thing happening now at my children’s school), horrible bully type kids can be the most popular and rarely get any kind of consequences for being nasty. It seems as though no one wants to get on the wrong side of the bullies.

My children play in football teams and one of the coaches always goes on about turning up to training, being a good team player, listening, trying your best. But the truth is they only want the best players. There are players that rarely turn up to training, are nasty to other kids, but because they are naturally talented players they still get to play a full game every week, get man of the match and so on

I see it happen at work. One of my colleagues got really badly bullied by another colleague she even had email proof and it went to HR but nothing happened to the bully colleague because she is admittedly good at her job and has experiences that others don’t.

It’s not always like that, one of my children never got picked for anything at primary school even though he tried his best, behaved etc but once he got to secondary his good nature paid off and they started actually rewarding effort and good behaviour but I do believe that often in life that the values we are told to have don’t really get you anywhere.

Even in the last few years, there's been a shift and the "popular, cool, talented bullies" have got called out for their behaviour (allegedly ranging from being a mean bully to serious crimes). Weinstein, Tara from that Models show, Ellen DeGeneres, Brand, Walliams, various footballers (sorry for spellings).
Whether or not you believe in an afterlife/rebirth, you can see that things come around.
It might not be as obvious in the office, but there have been cases of the mean girls/sleazes getting karma.
And the nice kids generally do end up with nice friends they can trust.

It is one of the horrible realisations we all have to go through. When I was young, I developed this idiotic delusion (fostered by mawkish films and TV shows) that good people win through in the end and bad people get their just deserts. Then you hit middle-age and realise not only is that bullsh*t, actually the reverse is true. Most of the obnoxious, arrogant bullies have gone on to thrive. And it is always, always, f-ing always the nice people who seem to go under. Every time someone sweet and nice dies of cancer, or is cheated on by their partner, I think "hang on, be rational, it can't always be the nice people." Then it happens again...and again.

This is a bit weird. Of course kids will get chosen for a team if they're good at the sport. What else are you supposed to be selecting for?

And of course there should be consequences if they can't be respectful to teammates or attend practices. They'll be detrimental to the team if they don't show up or hurt other kids. Are you seeing children frequently bashing other children and not turning up for practices but there being no consequences? I think that's unusual.

There is a persistent idea that the "popular" kids are horrible, but the truth is that actually popular people are usually pretty pleasant... that's why they're popular! I was in the sad, nerdy group at school and actually the popular crowd didn't outnumber us, and we had plenty of hierarchy, infighting, politics and nastiness among ourselves as well. Nothing I'd call bullying, but we certainly weren't morally superior just because we weren't very fashionable. Turned out most of us were ND, and tbh we were not always easy to get along with. I can see why we didn't have mass appeal.

Not that nice if you're calling a colleague a bitch....

It only counts internally: it means that you are living by the values that are important to you. You don't act 'nice' just to have 'nice' things happen to you, it's not transactional like that. You are 'nice' or whatever because it's the right thing to do, it's the right way to live your life. You can't control what happens externally - like getting picked for the team or given a promotion. But you can have control over living up to your own values. That's integrity.

Sorry but she is. She talks about everyone, stirs arguments and causes divisions in our team. I didn’t say I was a saint - just try and be nice (but sometimes it’s impossible)

100% agree. It's definitely my experience of myself and family. Unfortunately, people take advantage of "nice/good" people as they're seen to be weak. Modern life is set up for the loud, extraverted, selfish, "takers". Bullying is just one aspect, there are lots of other aspects of how the not-so-nice and not-so-good people get on in life far better.

It’s true but then the alternative is that the bully types don’t really have real friends- they’ve people who agree with them. The pushy people in life, those that jump queues, shout loudest and declare they don’t give two shits, call people people pleasers etc etc- they’ll never have people say ‘I’m glad I knew them ’.

Exactly. A football team has no metric for 'nice'. It's not going to want violent or uncontrolled players who foul and start fights and get red cards, obviously, but other than that, it wants the best players. Likewise, I don't care whether my ortho consultant buys the Big issue and is nice to his staff -- I care whether he can cure me.

Tbh, OP, I tend to think that 'nice' is used in these kinds of plaintive posts as a code for 'people-pleasing wet lettuce who is incapable of being assertive or boundaried and is possibly not very good at their job'. I'm trustworthy and honest, and a good friend and colleague -- but I'm also assertive, forthright, and won't let someone take credit for my work or push me around. 'Nice' doesn't have to mean 'mimsy'.

Absolutely agree, dawned on me in the last couple of years.
I increasingly felt like I was the only good person with good values etc surrounded by aggressive, selfish takers.
I would happily let people out at junctions with a big smile, hold doors open for people, basically be really friendly to everyone, not in a fake kind of way, I genuinely love chatting to people etc.

For a while I thought it was kind of like a inner happiness/contentment I had whilst they were deeply unhappy people. I thought Karma would come for them but its clearly not the case.

I've completely pulled back, I actively think before conversing with people whereas before I would instantly go into happy chatty response mode, now I stop and think can I be bothered to make your day feel better when it's very likely you are going to actively make mine worse.

I feel like I'm being 'off' with people now because I'm not as nice but I've had it with being nice in a world of people who don't care. It's shit but it's rare I come across other kind/nice/friendly people.

I agree, unfortunately. I comes down to evolutionary biology and which traits favour survival over others, and 'winning' over other people. Humans are animals and they are programmed to compete for survival, often at the expense of weaker, gentler people. Taken to its logical conclusion this can result in bullying.

I recognise this, but it doesn't have to mean you need to abandon morals and be nasty. It just means that, as well as being good, kind, loyal, honest and helpful to other people, you need to be a strong personality and stick up for yourself too.

I've often found in my life that 'good' people aren't always 'nice' people. I had a boss whose family had been killed in the Holocaust and she was one of the most morally upright people I've ever met. But she wasn't always 'nice', in the sense that she didn't pander to people, didn't tell them what they wanted to hear and would even upset some people if she thought they were doing the wrong thing. She could some over as harsh and brusque, but if you were in a corner, she'd always do her best to help you. So being nice and being good aren't always the same thing.

I'm not quite that strong! But I've taught myself to be 'good' and do the right thing by others but at the same time, make sure I'm not taken advantage of. I can recognise a bully at 100 paces and they don't get far with me. You have to look after yourself before you can help anyone else, so don't be afraid to have a healthy sense of self-respect.

Just to clarify - the reason I mentioned her family dying in the Holocaust was because I think it had made her very brave. She knew how appalling humans can be to each other and that made her both very moral and very much someone you didn't mess with.

OttersOnAPlane: 'Being a decent human being and being a pushover aren't the same thing.'

I was just about to post and say roughly the same thing. I was having a bible lesson on Wednesday and we were discussing this. We were talking about although it's good to be nice, that doesn't mean you are a pushover!
Unfortunately there are people out there that will zone in on lack of confidence and use and abuse you. But confidence and kindness should be two seperate things. If you put yoursel first sometimes it doesn't mean you are being selfish or unkind, it's just putting up a boundry.
Besides, I prefer to do the right thing because I think I can so I should, and so I can face myself in bed at night knowing I tried my best.

Unfortunately a lot of the time the traits that come with being nice also come with the traits of being easily walked all over. I don't disagree with you at all OP.

The people who shout the loudest, make the biggest fuss or the ones with connections regardless of skill are usually the ones picked for stuff.

Nobody is saying you have to be a saint, or that your colleague can’t genuinely be unpleasant. The problem is the rather convenient leap from “she’s a bitch and I’m nice” to “therefore people reward nasty behaviour and I’m overlooked because I’m too good.” 😂 which frankly, just doesnt wash I'm afraid.

I dont know of a single person who goes into work saying "I cant wait to talk to Sandra today, she's a total nasty bully who causes arguments constantly and slags me off- but I really hope I can sit with her at lunch!"

If she really does spend her time talking about people, stirring arguments and causing divisions, then presumably other adults are perfectly capable of noticing that for themselves. If they still like her, perhaps there are qualities they enjoy that you’re deliberately choosing not to acknowledge.

And “I try to be nice, but sometimes it’s impossible” is hardly a ringing endorsement of your argument. You started off saying you always try to be nice and now you are saying it's impossible to be nice at times. So, which is it?

None of us are "nice" all the time because we are flawed human beings. But kindness isn’t about being endlessly pleasant or never getting irritated -it’s about how you treat people when you’re annoyed, when you disagree, and when there’s nothing to gain from being decent.

I just find it fascinating how quickly these conversations become “I’m the nice one and she’s the bitch, so why does everyone like her?” Perhaps before concluding that the entire team has inexplicably failed to recognise your superior niceness, it’s worth considering that other people may not see the situation quite as you do.

not in a fake kind of way, I genuinely love chatting to people etc.For a while I thought it was kind of like a inner happiness/contentment I had whilst they were deeply unhappy people. I thought Karma would come for them but its clearly not the case.

I'm not sure a genuinely "nice" person or one with inner happiness and contentment would be watching others hoping for a vengeful god (which is what people mean by karma in this context, but not at all what the concept actually is) to strike them.

Everyone is scared of bullies, especially HR and directors. Nothing ever comes of grievances. Life is a competition and not remotely fair. Just fight to try and avoid a victim mindset, is my approach

I don't know how typical children's sports are of life in general. I think that in ordinary adult life, someone who is honest, considerate and respectful of other people tends to be well liked and trusted, though possibly not praised and emulated in the way a more flamboyant, less reliable person might be.

I'm a 'fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me' person. I'm pretty ruthless at walking away from people who mess me around, especially more than once. It's been a very protective policy.

You think I'm looking for a 'vengeful god to strike people'.....are you smoking crack, pure mumsnet response there 😆

I would like to think Karma exists, wouldn't you? Good people get good things, bad people get bad things, fair no?

Then you hit middle-age and realise not only is that bullsht, actually the reverse is true. Most of the obnoxious, arrogant bullies have gone on to thrive. And it is always, always, f-ing always the nice people who seem to go under. Every time someone sweet and nice dies of cancer, or is cheated on by their partner, I think "hang on, be rational, it can't always be the nice people." Then it happens again...and again.*

I am middle aged. The kids that bullied me throughout school have certainly not gone on to "thrive". One is dead, one ended up in prison and one is in a dead end job and constantly moaning about how they're twice divorced and are constantly getting dumped (I looked them all up once on Facebook- it was glorious). So I dont agree that only bullies thrive - thats confirmation bias talking.

Also regarding cancer - Reggie Kray died of cancer, was he a "nice" person?

It counts for a lot in my circles.

You’ve got to have something else, though - you can’t just be nice and honest and reliable. You’ve got to be good fun, or interesting, or talented, or funny.

(Same probably goes for evil people, tbh. You’d be a pretty unsuccessful villain without a bit of charisma)