To think in life being a nice, good person rarely counts for much?

[Autumncalm]

I’ve noticed in life that being nice, helpful, honest, reliable, trustworthy rarely count for much.

For example when I was at school (and I still see the same thing happening now at my children’s school), horrible bully type kids can be the most popular and rarely get any kind of consequences for being nasty. It seems as though no one wants to get on the wrong side of the bullies.

My children play in football teams and one of the coaches always goes on about turning up to training, being a good team player, listening, trying your best. But the truth is they only want the best players. There are players that rarely turn up to training, are nasty to other kids, but because they are naturally talented players they still get to play a full game every week, get man of the match and so on

I see it happen at work. One of my colleagues got really badly bullied by another colleague she even had email proof and it went to HR but nothing happened to the bully colleague because she is admittedly good at her job and has experiences that others don’t.

It’s not always like that, one of my children never got picked for anything at primary school even though he tried his best, behaved etc but once he got to secondary his good nature paid off and they started actually rewarding effort and good behaviour but I do believe that often in life that the values we are told to have don’t really get you anywhere.

Not many people these days say they believe in God, but many say they believe in karma - but what they mean by karma in this context is a god. A force that smites the unworthy; hardly a new concept. (Not what karma actually is, but it's what people usually mean when they use the term.)

I find this interesting, but I also find it interesting that they rarely speak of this vengeful god smiting murderers or rapists. It's usually cheaters and people who piss you off at work.

I think you're confusing being nice with being non-confrontational and a pushover.

Being non-confrontational and a pushover/bending to the will of other people, is absolutely a negative in life. It's independent from being kind though. You can be a confrontational, strong character who is kind.

Or a pushover who bends to what other people want/doesn't stick up for themselves and is kind. The more confrontational person will always do better in life, in my opinion.

The first paragraph is you making fun of the idea that I've said you believe in a vengeful god. The next paragraph is you describing a vengeful god that you hope exists. Well, you probably think of it as a god of fairness, but "bad people get bad things" is the same thing.

That certainly would be fair, but even the concept of good and bad people is itself pretty hard to determine.

It counts for a lot if it means something to the individual. Most people who are genuinely good people aren't like that to advance themselves.

We all have different moral compasses and values. It matters to me that I'm fair, decent, don't use people for my own ends, pay my way, am there for the people that matter to me. I don't know whether that makes me a good person or not and equally that doesn't matter to me. What matters is being able to look at myself in the mirror and like who I am. I agree that ambitious people are often more selfish and have a different set of values and ideals.

So how come you say everyone loves her @Skyflier ?

Agreed, @marbIehalls -- it's also worth pointing out that 'nice' is not the same as 'good'. I doubt I'd be described as particularly 'nice', but I'm trustworthy, honest, fair-minded, committed, will keep confidences and speak up if I see wrongdoing or someone being mistreated. It's possible to do your best to be 'good' while not being perceived as 'nice'. 'Nice' is in the eye of the beholder, and I'm not that interested in that. It's not in my criteria for friends, either. Are you interesting? is my first criterion when I meet someone.

I think it counts massively and reflects internal ethos. Combine with a good skill set, you’ve got someone who is both personable and able. The perfect mix.

Of course there are non personable people who get on in life but they lose in other ways, damaged family or friend relationships and being disliked in the workspace.

I have concluded (weirdly just this morning) that there are three basic types of people: arseholes, cowards and kind people.

The arseholes lie, cheat, manipulate and shit on everyone.

The cowards enable the arseholes. They do this to protect themselves and in so doing shit on the kind people.

The kind people are just treated like the shit they have been covered in.

I have been covered in so much shit that I am very tempted to jump into the arsehole category but the problem is it’s just not in my DNA. I’m a people pleaser, I am traditional and respectful. I can try but I would be very convincing.

Yes! I totally agree. “Nice” is such a bland, limp descriptor. To me, it conjures up the image of a chronic people-pleaser who agrees with everyone and avoids any kind of confrontation, even when they’re secretly seething with resentment. There’s something deeply inauthentic about that.

I’d far rather be described as kind, ethical and trustworthy rather than simply “nice.” Kindness has substance; “nice” often feels like nothing more than being agreeable. 🤮

Let me guess… you would describe yourself as one of the “kind” people

I so agree @Autumncalm

And when I say 'kind', I mean 'freely choosing to do something for the benefit of someone else from a position of choice' not 'I never say no to a request because it makes me uncomfortable or I'm afraid people will dislike me.' I pity that. I don't respect it.

I'm glad you agree that would be fair.

It's just quite funny when someone mentions Karma and you turn that into a lecture on how they want a vengeful god to strike people, bit of a reach but....yeah I would mind a bit of a vengeful consequence for bad people, it would be lovely to see a murderer getting a strike!

As for you thinking I'm not 'genuinely nice' well I was but like I say I'm actively trying not to be these days, it's getting me absolutely no where in life.

For example I wouldn't dream of not saying a cheery thank you when getting change from a cashier yet the cashier shoves it in my hand and doesn't say a word.
I found a phone and I was so chuffed to be able to get it back to the owner, I left mine in a toilet a few weeks later and it was instantly turned off and gone forever. Karma god didn't help me with that one!
Just today I stopped on my side of the road to let a car through when his side was blocked, I gave him a friendly drive wave as he went past and he stuck his finger up at me.
I'm done with these people, there's so many of them and I'm not making any effort to be a good person anymore unless I come across someone who I can see is good first.

That's where I am at too, I'm trying to jump over and join the arseholes!

I’m it sure why you would jump to that conclusion.

I don’t know what all those deleted posts are but I haven’t said that my kids are not good at football have I?

I’ve just noticed that even though some coaches go on about how you must attend training if you want to be in the team. Some kids never show up at training and still get in the team. Why not just be honest and say I’m only going to pick the best players regardless of behaviour and commitment?

I’m also not sure why you’ve put ‘horrors’ like that. Yes some kids are horrible. I’ve seen kids thump other kids, swearing at people and other stuff and still be allowed to play in the team.

Some kids never show up at training and still get in the team

what has that got to do with them being nice good trustworthy people?

I actually agree with this.

I’m not sure whether I’m actually a coward or a kind person. I try to be kind and I try to speak up when I see someone being treated badly but life has taught me it doesn’t always end welll

How old are your kids?

Are you being deliberately argumentative?

So you see these kids as not being nice good or trustworthy people?

how old are they?

I think it says a lot about the company you keep. I only have decent people in my life if I can help it. I have no interest in people who fuck others over, or see this as a strength and see honestly and reliability and integrity as a weakness.

This.

OP was just trying to give examples of doing the right thing doesn't get you the good outcome.

Surely you would think if a kid shows up for training each week, tries hard etc they should be at least given the same opportunity as a kid who doesn't show any commitment or care but it becomes apparent that it doesn't count for anything. It's not the Premier League, they can give her kid a game if he's trying hard.

depends entirely on age

Why are you being so arsy?